Episode 45: Highly Sensitive + Thriving
Guest: April Snow
Lauren Selfridge: Thanks for joining me in my living room.
April Snow: Thanks, Lauren. I’m so happy to be here.
L: Yeah, it's nice, too. I feel like I get to hang out with you and some microphones.
*Laughter*
A: I know.
L: Kind of not the normal way that we hang out.
A: No it's not. It's a little bit different, but I'm all still excited.
L: A little bit different, yeah. Well it's, I have a lot of reasons I'm excited for you to be here.
A: Hmm.
L: But I'll kind of reveal those as we go on.
A: Oh, okay.
L: And I want to start the same way I always do by asking what is your health journey?
A: Yeah, sure. I've been thinking a lot about this question since you invited me on the podcast and my health journey started almost at the beginning of my life. So I was age three. I had a pretty severe outbreak of eczema. That's when it all started. And I've had eczema ever since, so I'll be 37 this month. So that's 34 years of dealing with eczema at many times. Been very severe, where I was out of school, I wasn't able to function necessarily. And then that slowly evolved into pretty severe allergies. So environmental allergies, most people with eczema, you know what I mean? So the typical things like ragweed and dust, and molds, things like that. And then also a lot of food sensitivities as well. So there's a lot of layers to it. And I'm always thinking about it.
L: Mmmm.
A: Whose house I can go to, what I can eat, what clothing I pick out. There's a lot of different ways that impacts my life. And since it's been happening since I was little, it's like we're just talking about, it's mostly in the background. It's something I don't or necessarily even realize I'm thinking about. It just become a part of my norm. But it does take a lot of energy. And there's been times where I've been like on a dose of steroids, prednisone or something like that and realizing how much energy it does take up. Because in those moments I get a week of freedom. I have no symptoms, I have lots of energy. I can um, live less like a more low maintenance lifestyle.
L: Yeah.
A: I always say I'm high maintenance, so I have to think about everything. So it, it does weave its way into everything that I do and it's still a journey that I'm on discovering what is the underlying cause of all of this? You know, some of it is genetic, you know, eczema runs in my family. Well there's a lot of different pieces that have ties to my digestion, stress levels, um, how I take care of myself. So it's, it's, it's a very complex web and I think a lot of people with chronic health challenges understand that the doctors don't always have all the answers.
L: Yeah.
A: Or you have to really advocate for yourself and push hard to get underneath. Like what's the underlying cause because they just want to look at the surface.
L: Mmhmm.
A: There's a lot of parallels here to therapy as well, us both being therapists.
L: That’s true.
A: You really have to show up for yourself in finding what's going to heal you and what's gonna soothe you.
L: Yeah, yeah. That's something that is so much about a relationship with yourself.
A: Mmhmm.
L: Getting outside messages about what's going on when you've got a sort of deeper intuitive sense that, oh, I want to get to the bottom of this and I'm don't feel like we're there yet.
A: Well that's it. Cause a lot of it's subtle. Especially I'm learning with the digestive pieces. You know, a lot of people with eczema have leaky gut. I'm learning that, um, histamine sensitivity might be something that's impacting me. So I’m having reactions to all these different types of foods. I can't take out all these foods out of my diet. Although I've had allergy tests before. The doctors said just eat everything. Don't eat anything that you're reacting to, I'm like, that's 90% of the foods.
L: Wow. That's a big order to not…
A: That's a big order. Yeah. So it, you know, what I can eat is shrunken greatly over my lifetime and there's a big impact from that right. Now, nutrition and other consequences to greatly restricting your diet. And so I'm needing to be the one that picks up the torch and says, okay, what is going on here? Right. There's more than what the doctors are telling me.
L: Yeah.
A: And looking to alternative medicine sources, that's been where I've gotten the most answers.
L: There's something about when you were telling the piece about your story, which had to do with environmental factors.
A: Mmhmm.
L: Like, allergies and sensitivities.
A: Mmhmm, yeah.
L: That struck me as being….to me it sounded like a lot of internal work emotionally.
A: Yes.
L: To know that environments could impact you so differently.
A: Absolutely. I'm excited that you said that because it's not just the physical environment, it’s the emotional environment.
L: Mmhmm.
A: So a lot of the reasons that I was struggling as a young person with eczema was stress-related. There are some trauma there that was happening. So my skin was showing what was happening in my internal world. So when I was at a point in my life before therapy, before a lot of the, the work I've done on myself, I didn't have the words to process what was going on, but my skin was showing it.
L: Yeah.
A: My body was telling me.
L: So what is often so invisible….
A: Yes.
L: Became this physical, visible thing.
A: Yeah. And I always talk about my, my skin is, it's a blessing and a curse for that exact reason. It’s a curse because when I am having a stressful week, I'm having um, something emotional happening for me. It shows on my skin.
L: Mmhmm.
A: Starting probably at the age, at age 14, it started showing on my face.
L: Mmmm.
A: Before, it was mostly in the typical eczema spots. Um, arm crevices, you know. Behind the knees a lot of people with eczema will relate. Like those are the typical spots and also kind of anywhere where you have lymph notes.
L: Mmhmm.
A: But when I was 14, it started showing up on my face and since then it shows up the most on my face. I have very little eczema the rest of my body, but um, it will show on my face and neck and when I have, my allergies are flaring also on my face gets really blotchy. So in one way everyone sees when I'm stressed, when I'm tired or when something's going on for me. But, the flip side of that, the blessing is I am noticing things right away and I'm able to take care of them.
L: Mmhmm.
A: My body's not letting me get stressed where it gets to a point of greater health issue. Right? So it's forcing me to address things right away.
L: Oh yeah.
A: And I appreciate that.
L: The fact that stress exacerbates so many different physical symptoms for so many different diagnoses is, I totally agree that it's a blessing and a curse because nobody wants their symptoms to flare up.
A: No.
L: That's still the way of it. You know, nobody really wants that.
A: No.
L: And I feel like, yeah, my MS asks me to be the CEO of stress management.
*Laughter*
A: I love that. You're in charge.
L: Yeah. I need to be putting that….whatever the opposite of the backburner, the front burner.
A: Mmhmm.
L: I need to be putting my wellbeing on the front burner.
A: Mmhmm.
L: It's not really a phrase. So I just want to be clear.
*Laughter*
L: Don't go around telling your friends that phrase because that's not a real one.
A: No, but it's true. It forces you to prioritize yourself to put your wellbeing at the forefront.
L: Yes. And so now I'm having one of those moments where I'm taking it in just a little deeper into my heart as you said that, because I think that's one of our main jobs as humans.
A: Yeah, that's true. Slow down enough to really notice ourselves and what's actually happening in our lives, and then astherapists, we, we walk alongside people doing that every day. Right. Trying to, to find that path back inward.
L: Yeah.
A: Which is something that I did, maybe mild, late teens, early twenties. I defined that path to myself and realize, okay, my body's really screaming at me and it's wanting me to do that deep healing.
L: Yeah.
A: And it's something that, I mean, honestly I still struggle with it, you know, on some levels, but I'm much more connected now and my skin, it's showing me that. It's showing me that, okay, you're listening to me, you're, you're really taking the time to find out what's really going on here. What's underneath all of this.
L: Yeah. And I'm curious how you first started to meet yourself in that way.
A: It all started when I left home for college. So I had a, a big shift in my environments. All of a sudden I went from caring for everyone else and I finally had the space to care for myself. Ask myself, what do I want.
L: Mmmm.
A: So, you know, I'm the eldest of three kids and I was, you know, primary caretaker in my family. So for, for the first time in my life I had a lot more space to reflect and to um, just be with myself. So that was the very beginning of that journey and having had some really helpful relationships that mirrored back to me that I was disconnected, that there was some incongruencies.
L: So when you had the spaciousness…
A: Yeah.
L: When you started, it sounds like there was a self-reflective piece to it.
A: Very much so. It was like everything got quiet enough for me to listen.
L: I feel like the only response to that is more silence. I just need to take another moment cause I was like, yup, that makes so much sense.
A: Mmhm. Yeah. When everything is so noisy and we're distracted, we become disconnected from our bodies. And it's so easy for things to, to pile up, right.
L: Yeah.
A: For health issues to pile up. I mean it's easy for me. I can slap on some topical steroids and forget about it, but I know in my heart that there's deep ramifications for that. Not just physically but also emotionally.
L: Mmmm.
A: Just as if we ignore something that's hurting us, it will be in the background until we have time to deal with it.
L: Mmhmm.
A: It doesn't go away.
L: Yeah.
A: So it's a great metaphor for other areas of exploration or healing.
L: So one of the reasons I'm super jazzed that you're here, and I've thought about it for so long before our conversation is because of...you are the person who taught me about the concept of being highly sensitive.
A: Mmhmm.
L: And I hadn't really heard of it much before being a highly sensitive person.
A: Mmhmm.
L: And you are now the main expert in my life and I think even if we weren't friends, you would be because you are kind of an expert on it at this point.
A: Thank you.
L: And I'd love for you to share what it is and how you learned about it in your own life.
A: Yeah, sure. Okay. Well, yeah, finding myself getting a little teary because it's a very important topic to my heart. It really taught me a lot about myself and not just about myself, but how, well how and why I'm so impacted by my health challenges.
L: Mmhmm.
A: Because A, I’m more prone to stress as a highly sensitive person. I'll get into more of that. But also when something is bothering me, I'm noticing it on a very subtle level. So some, some symptoms or discomfort that other people might be able to ignore. I'm not able to because I'm so aware.
L: Mmmm.
A: So I initially I realize I was a highly sensitive person. Um, when I was in grad school, I think it was my very first year at CIS where we both went to school. And someone had mentioned in a conversation, one of my classmates and they were talking about themselves being highly sensitive. And I was like, what is that? And at the time I was really, really immersed in learning about introversion because I knew that there was something different about me.
L: Mmmm.
A: The way I move through the world, what I needed, how I manage my energy levels, what my interests were. I just, I knew that there was something different. So I was trying, I was seeking that out and I had landed on introversion. I was like this isn't totally it. And then when someone mentioned this piece about high sensitivity, I was like, like a light switch. I say this all the time. It was like a light switch went on. Everything started to make sense.
L: Mmmm.
A: And is it okay if I talk a little bit about what that is?
L: Absolutely.
A: Just to give listeners a sense, cause I know a lot of people haven't heard of this. It's a, it is a temperament trait. It’s innate. You're born with it, but it's only been research maybe for the past 20-30 years in a significant way. Okay. So a lot of folks haven't heard of it. And because of the word sensitive, it's often misperceived as being hypersensitive, being too emotional. There's a lot of miss, um, information out there about the trait. So essentially 20% of the population are highly sensitive. 70% of those people are introverts. The rest are extroverts. So it's not the same as introversion.
L: Mmhmm.
A: It's just one piece in your temperament, your personality. So if you're highly sensitive means that you're a deep processor, your brain is wired to think deeply, to really notice subtleties, very perceptive, our insights are more active. So we take in a lot more than other people would. And because of that we tend to get overwhelmed. Our nervous systems tend to get overstimulated very easily. We’re also more emotionally responsive. We feel everything, whether it's, you know, the negative all the way to the positive very deeply, which actually can be a great gift.
L: Mmhmm.
A: You have to really find joy in the little details.
L: Yes.
A: Which is amazing. And then also we tend to be, um, sensitive to sensory input. So noises, lights, textures, things like that. The benefit of this is there's like an evolutionary advantage. That's why it's stuck around. We need people that notice the details that um, can help stand back and say, okay, this is what's going on. Here are the areas of danger and...but also being able to put together ideas and be very innovative and creative. So make great partners. We make amazing co, you know, coworkers, we just really have a lot of strengths and unfortunately, the main difficulty is the overwhelm, right? Being more prone to stress.
L: Yeah.
A: And this definitely links back to health challenges. A lot of highly sensitive people tend to have health challenges when they're not living a suitable lifestyle for them or they have enough downtime, they get enough rest, they get enough time immersed in meaningful activities and connections with other people. All of this is really important for highly sensitive people. So when we are more stressed, when we're pushing ourselves too much, we tend to have more health challenges. You know, we have very finely tuned nervous systems and when our nervous systems are overstimulated are immune reactions can break down. Obviously stress can create health challenges. Um, but we tend to be more prone to that. So there's, you'll see a lot of HSPs showing up in chronic illness circles and just talking about some of the health challenges they're going through and how to balance that. It can be, it can really tough when you're... when you feel so deeply and you notice so many little details and also, you know, our brains are wired to see the big picture so we can often spin out when we are having a health issue.
L: Hmm.
A: Like what does this mean? We're very existential. We like to think through things, we like to process and know what's coming ahead.
L: Mmhmm.
A: So one small health challenge, we start to worry about the impact of that. It gets really complicated but there tends to be a correlation.
L: It's been neat watching how you, I read your articles and, and I have heard you talk a lot about being a highly sensitive person and ways to support highly sensitive people because you and I are therapists. The majority of therapy clients are highly sensitive.
A: Yeah. Probably 50% of all therapy clients are highly sensitive.
L: Which is so cool. Just amazing.
A: Yeah.
L: And, and it makes sense to me because I, you know, as a highly sensitive person, I absolutely value therapy as a client.
A: Mmhmm.
L: And I find that, okay, people I work with, tend to really value therapy.
A: Right. Because as you know, highly sensitive people, we like to deeply process and reflect. We're feeling our emotions in a big way or more prone to negative affects from trauma and stress. So it makes sense. We're going to show up in the therapy room and highly sensitive people make great clients because there's something called vantage sensitivity. We respond just as we respond more too negative circumstances, we also respond more to positive interventions and relationships.
L: Mmhmm.
A: A highly sensitive person will take a little bit of what's happening in therapy and they'll, they'll grow really quickly.
L: Mmhmm.
A: So it's just amazing.
L: Yeah.
A: So yeah, therapists love highly sensitive people quite a bit because they see a lot of rapid growth.
L: Yeah.
A: Yeah. And it feels good as a highly sensitive client to experience that growth.
L: Right. And I think, and that's what I love about what you do is I feel like you equipped other therapists as well to be great support for highly sensitive clients.
A: Yeah.
L: And as I have studied it over the years, what I've sensed was that a lot of what folks with chronic illness deal with mirrors what a lot of folks who are highly sensitive deal with, with or without health challenges. So some just, they don't have these health challenges.
A: Absolutely.
L: Some chronically ill people do are not HSP.
A: Absolutely.
L: And yet there are these common themes that I've noticed and that's part of why I'm just like, ooh, I'm still making the connections. Um, but I would love to just kind of brainstorm with you about tools that you've noticed help both folks with chronic illness and highly sensitive folks.
A: Yeah, I definitely, I think tools are really important and I'm curious what are the overlaps that you have noticed if you feel comfortable to share.
L: And that's the part that it's, it's hard to really pinpoint.
A: Mmhmm.
L: And actually it was funny because when I was thinking about our conversation, I was like, I need to come up with a theory.
A: Mmhmm.
L: And I need to have some answers, but then I was like, no, that's not how anything happens in this podcast.
A: Yeah.
L: You just show up and see what happens.
A: It's organic.
L: For me, I can say, well, here's something that I think is interesting and I think maybe it's partially because you came into my life right around the time that I was diagnosed.
A: True.
L: Is that aye started to sense my own high sensitivity right around the time that I was diagnosed. Because I actually,I had heard of it and I used to say like, that doesn't make sense.
A: Mmhmm.
L: Everybody's sensitive. Why would there be a designation for that?
A: That’s it. I think that it's important to distinguish that.
L: Yeah.
A: There’s sensitive and then there's highly sensitive.
L: Yeah. Yeah, and the funny thing is that now that I've studied it, I see, Oh, wait a minute. The way that I see the world is actually not the way everybody does.
A: Mmhmm. And we don't realize that.
L: Yeah.
*Light laughter*
A: We only have our own external experience to reflect upon.
L: Yeah. And in fact, just even how this podcast has evolved as now we have music in the episodes and that's the result of one of my highly sensitive friends who I adore. Um, telling me, Hey Lauren, when you shared that part in your story where you said, that's when they found all the lesions, I needed a beat. I needed a little break.
A: Mmhmm. Yeah.
L: And I was like, Oh, that makes sense.
A: Mmhmm.
L: Because when we listen to somebody's story, we're taking it into our hearts.
A: Absolutely.
L: And to keep going can be overwhelming without a little break every now and then or to support this heart-centered moment that somebody is having.
A: Mmhmm.
L: So as I started to realize that I started to incorporate the tools that I was learning as a highly sensitive person, like giving myself time and space, into how I manage my chronic illness.
A: Mmhmm. Yeah.
L: Because what I was doing at the time was taking a lot of naps and feeling guilty about it. And there's a big difference between taking a nap and feeling guilty about it and taking a nap and feeling totally at peace with it.
A: Big difference.
L: You know?
A: Big difference. Okay. I'm starting to see some of the overlaps as you're talking.
L: Yeah.
A: Because for me, my, okay, the most important piece as a highly sensitive person is living a life on my own terms that is suited to my needs. Because when I do that, when I prioritize my needs, even if they're different, that's when I can thrive. So I imagine for you with taking, needing to take naps, if you can take naps without that added layer of guilt.
L: Yeah.
A: You're going to be able to thrive in way that you wouldn't be able to do if you're feeling guilty about it or you didn't give yourself permission. Cause I am sure if you don't take naps, there's a, there's a consequence to that.
L: Totally. There's physical and emotional.
A: Same as if I go to someone's house that has a dog. And not advocate for myself. And say, I can't actually visit you at home, let's go somewhere else to visit.
L: Mmhmm.
A: There's a consequence to that and it takes energy and then it becomes this overwhelming health response for me.
L: Yes, it compounds.
A: It compounds. Exactly. So as a highly sensitive person, the most important thing you're going to need to do is accept that your needs are different; to stop comparing yourself to other people.
L: Yeah.
A: Right.
L: Yeah. I love it.
A: To get out of the shoulds, this is what I should do. This is how I should do that and this is how I needed to show up. Forget that. Ask yourself, what do I need? And give yourself permission to give that to yourself. That's the basis of anything you're going to do and there's so many tools, but essentially that's it. Self-acceptance, getting enough downtime. And having space in your life for meaningful activities and connections. Things that fill you up.
L: Mmmmm. My chill-ometer has gone off the chart.
*Laughter*
L: Like I've gotten so many chills hearing you say that. This is another thing. As a side note, that part of my personal goals for myself are like emotional goals. So instead of like, Oh, I want to, you know, be a CEO of something, I'm kind of more, um, like I remember this year. It was a new year and I was like, Oh, what's your resolution?
A: Mmhmm.
L: I was like, I want to laugh and cry as much as I can this year.
A: Mmhmm.
L: And not to the point of overwhelm, but just because I want to feel.
A: Yeah.
L: And what I've noticed is just even in the last like six months, I get more chills than I used to. Physical response to the emotional energy that I'm feeling.
A: Mmhmm.
L: And it's like my, my mind and spirit and body are in communion.
A: Oh, it's beautiful.
L: So as you said that, and the first thing you said that sent those chills across my arms. Was you said, accept that your needs are different.
A: Mmhmm.
L: Which I'm imagining people listening to this and just taking a deep breath.
A: Yeah. Yeah, when I hear that spoken back to me, it feels really important. It really resonates at a deep level on so many layers of my experience as a highly sensitive person, but also as a person who has health challenges. Right. Someone with eczema and allergies when people don't always understand. Yeah. And there's a, there's a difficulty in when something is more subtle. So being a highly sensitive person, my reactions are more subtle. Someone may not realize that I'm overwhelmed because what I'm being overwhelmed by is very minute and they don't even notice.
L: Mmmm.
A: It could be someone's tone or shift in the energy in the room. Yeah. Or maybe just a little bit too noisy. Someone else is not registering that. Say with my health challenges, someone might say, Oh, well you're not breaking out into hives and needing to go to the hospital and having an anaphylactic experience, but I am. Maybe my skin is irritated and itchy because I went, I came into contact with something that bothered me.
L: Mmhmm.
A: That's for me, that's very uncomfortable and disruptive. But it can be difficult when things are subtle.
L: Yes.
A: When it’s not obvious.
L: Yeah.
A: It almost becomes a barrier to prioritizing yourself. Taking care of your needs.
L: Oh, That's so true.
A: So I want to tell myself over and over prioritize you. Elevate your needs to the top of the list. Cause for so many years I didn't do that.
L: Yeah.
A: And then I'd have to pay the price for that later, whether that be an exhaustion, needing to get another round of steroids, whatever it was.
L: Mmhmm. And there are so many things that can come in the way of us prioritizing our needs. And you know, we talk about that a lot on the podcast. Like Oh, you have to put yourself first in so many ways so that others, so that you can show up for anybody else in the world.
A: Mmhmm.
L: And then there's this other piece where, um, understanding that our needs are different. And that's true. I think if you've got a health challenge or if you're highly sensitive or both, making sense of that and it really clicking that my needs are different.
A: Mmhmm.
L: And that acceptance, that deep true acceptance is the doorway, I think, to building your dream life.
A: Absolutely. It's the key, right?
L: Yeah.
A: When you have that acceptance you can open the door to your most authentic life where you're feeling fulfilled.
L: Yes.
A: Right.
L: I want to say that you, you and I, I think one of the things I think we have in common, you can let me know if I'm right about this, is you and I are both really into experimenting with what works so that we can just make more of what works in our lives. Right?
A: Absolutely. It's fun. It's exciting.
L: Totally.
A: And I love seeing your face light up because, I’m talking about it for the folks who can’t see you.
L: I know it's almost like life is a game and it's up to you to figure out how to build it so that it works for you.
A: Yeah, it's a puzzle.
L: If we try to build it for somebody else or how somebody told us we should live our lives…
A: Mmhmm.
L: We wind up going so far down the wrong path and building something and we may like some aspects of it, but we may not realize that so much more is available to us.
A: Absolutely. That's exactly it. Getting real. And that's like an HSP superpower. Is that creativity to build a life that doesn't look like anyone else's life that you've ever seen.
L: Yes.
A: Right.
L: Yeah.
A: And it can be amazing and it's totally different, but it works for you and you’re thriving.
L: Yeah.
A: You're inventing it.
*Laughter*
A: I think we both are living lives that are not, uh, that are nontraditional.
L: Yes, absolutely.
A: And I get asked a lot of questions around, how do you do what you do and how do you make that work as a highly sensitive person or how do you do that when you're, you know, struggling with health stuff.? And I'm like, well, it's because I am giving myself permission to live outside the box.
L: Yes.
A: To live on my own terms.
L: Mmhmm.
A: It's so important to find your own path.
L: Yes, absolutely. And you know, I think that our friends and our mentors and anybody who inspires us are a little bit like guardian angels because we can call them into our consciousness at any moment, whether the person is still with us or they've passed away.
A: Mmhmm.
L: And you are one of those people. For me when I think about how am I creating my life? Because your intention is so graceful.
A: Mm.
L: And you are somebody who has these strong boundaries that never to me have come across as unkind.
A: Yeah.
L: To me or to anyone else.
A: I laugh whenever I've heard that a lot lately where people say, Oh, you have really good boundaries and it's so amazing to hear it back.
L: Yeah.
A” Because that is something that took me a long time to realize.
L: Yeah.
A: But it is essential. Protecting energy.
L: Right.
A: Prioritizing what we want.
L: Mmhmm.
A: And I'm going to just showers and love right back at you because you've also been a big inspiration for me just seeing how you’re navigating your life and these amazing choices you're making to, I don't actually get the most out of what you have.
L: Yeah. That kind of is it.
*Laughter*
A: And I think that's such an, um, amazing thing to do. Like take whatever's good and really absorb it, really lean into it.
L: Yeah. Like what if you just kept giving yourself more of what feels good in your life?
A: Right.
L: And, and I don't mean that from the, like in the vicey way where it's like, Oh yeah, I like Netflix so much that I'm going to watch it 24/7.
A: Right.
L: Definitely watch Netflix. I talk about it all the time. I should just try and get them to be a sponsors.
A: You really should.
L: But yeah, let's do that. But also like paying attention to what makes my body and my heart and my spirit feel alive.
A: Yes. That's it.
L: And sometimes rest helps with that. And sometimes there are other things that expand me and they don't necessarily need to take physical energy. Things that bring me to that place of expansiveness.
A: Mmhmm.
L: Openness and connection with myself.
A: Yes.
L: And what if I kept filling my life with more of that, you know.
A: Yes, it's okay to have more. It's okay to be happy and content, which is something that I never realized. I always thought that, um, happiness was a limited resource.
L: Mmhmm.
A: And realizing like, oh, there's abundance.
L: Yeah.
A: Just because I have a little bit of this now doesn't mean I can't have more of it later.
L: Yes. And that could be energy, that could be feeling healthy or feeling vibrant.
L: Mmhmm, yeah, and that, so that going back to why I conjure you up sometimes is I've visited where you live.
A: Mmhmm, yes.
L: It is a Haven.
A: It is.
L: I'm not going to give up too much information about the whereabouts, but it's just so beautiful and you're settled. You're like nestled in nature in a way that is so inspiring.
A: Yes. Mmhmm.
L: Safe and cozy.
A: It is. Yeah.
L: And so that's one of my happy places that I’ll go in my mind when I'm thinking about what my next steps are in my life and how I want to hold space for my schedule and my needs and my joys.
A: Mmhmm.
L: And I'll just kind of imagine, well, how did April do it? Oh, right, okay. So this is what she created for herself and it's outside the box and the boundary piece is you live kind of farther away from stuff.
A: On purpose.
*Laughter*
L: You know, you're like, yeah, that's not an inconvenience in the way that we might think.
A: That it's true because it feels like a sanctuary.
L: Mmhmm.
A: And I liked that I have separation between work and home.
L: Mmhmm.
A: Those boundaries are really important for me. And they're essential if you're highly sensitive and/or if you have health challenges.
L: Mmhmm.
A: Essential to create uhm, limits on how you're using your time and energy and also thinking about what do I want to say yes to.
L: Yeah.
A: That's something I'm learning in the past year or two. Cause you can say yes to something and yeah. And you realize you're down this path that you never consciously stepped onto and that's taking energy for something else you wanted, that you really feel passionate about.
L: Mmhmm. That’s true.
A: I only have so much energy and I wanna use it for what's really meaningful to me because otherwise I feel resentful.
L: Yes. It's so true.
A: Right.
L: And that's not fun.
A: I know you see that a lot in your couples work, right. That resentment is, it's a toxin to relationships.
L: Mmhmm.
A: So I want to be really intentional how I'm using my limited resources of time and energy.
L: Yes, and definitely I think the antidote to resentment is paying attention to what our needs, boundaries and desires are.
A: Yes.
L: Because if we don't, we wind up blaming other people for them.
A: Exactly.
L: You know, it's like, well I gave you this thing and now I resent it. And I was like, well did I really want to give you the thing in the first place?
A: Right.
L: Cause if I didn't, no wonder I'm feeling resentful.
A: Exactly. And checking in with yourself before you say yes.
L: Yeah.
A: Or at least delaying that yes. Giving yourself enough time to reflect upon it.
L: Mmhmm.
A: Like, yeah. I'm interested in saying yes, but let me, let me let you know tomorrow when I've had a chance to reflect upon it.
L: Yeah.
A: Right.
L: And that's the kind of boundary that I'm referring to. And I say there's a gentleness there. There's a way to be both fierce and kind.
A: Mmhmm. Yeah. Sensitive strength.
L: Yes. And sometimes when I hear the word boundary, I think of, um, like an angry kind of, or a sassy harsh like, no, I'm not going to give that to you and you're just going to have to deal with it. Like that's not what it necessarily means to have a boundary.
A: No. It's true. With boundaries, we can think of them as aggressive, right? Or harsh.
L: Yes.
A: There actually can be really kind because when you say no, sometimes that's preserving an important relationship.
L: Exactly.
A: Bypassing that layer of resentment that would happen if you said yes when you don't really have the energy or even interest.
L: Mmhmm.
A: I also want to give people that permission. Just say no if you're just not interested.
L: Mmhmm.
A: Just, and I always say just because you could, it doesn't mean you should do it.
L: Yes.
A: So give yourself permission to say no if that's what is really necessary for you or needed from you.
L: Yeah. And it is a, it's a real relief to think about how much our own paying attention to our needs is needed in all of our relationships. So even though it may appear…
A: Ourselves?
L: Yeah.
A: Yeah.
L: Like it may appear that we're supposed to be so many things to so many different people. Maybe that's a dynamic that we've, that we've created in ourselves or that we learned in our families. But at the end of the day, even for the most giving folks, the only way to sustain that is to be regularly coming back to your heart, paying attention to what does it feel like now? Can I have a passion yesterday that today I don't have anymore? Yes!
A: Yes.
L: Can I have a preference last year that today you don't have anymore.
A: Of course.
L: If we're paying attention, we notice that those things change and we evolve and sometimes that impacts relationships.
A: Mmhmm.
L: But the truth is we just need to be awake to the fact that we're all evolving. And that's just the way of it.
A: Absolutely. That feels so important to say. And it reminds me of my own journey with exploring health and, um, healing modalities because throughout my life I look and I've, I've explored so many different treatments and supplements and practitioners and sometimes feeling lost on that in that process.
L: Yeah.
A: Like, well, what am I doing? Am I, is this really serving me? Am I just grasping for things? And there can be some self-judgment in that. Like, Oh, I haven't stuck something through or did I not give that enough time to work? So yeah, there's some of that in my journey and realizing like this is a….bringing in some self-compassion, realizing this is a complicated process.
L: Yes.
A: And there's not a lot of answers, especially because everybody's bodies are reacting differently. So you hear a lot of absolutes, like in online forums and things like that would be like don't use steroids or you have to use this, this method. Or like actually my body's not responding in that same way. Or in my Facebook for for therapists I, we were talking about allergies and some people are like really natural. And then a couple of people spoke up and like, I actually need to take medication for this. And that's the only thing that works. And I could tell that they had been maybe shamed for it in the past and it gave me permission to say, you know what? Actually I also the medication sometimes because my symptoms are so severe and I can't respond to some of the natural remedies and, but there can be a shame in that.
L: Mmhmm. Yeah.
A: Right?
L: And there's, there are all kinds of worldviews and judgments that show up around different approaches that are rooted in a variety of things.
A: Right.
L: Whether it's somebody was strong-arming you to do something or now you don't want to do anything like that ever again or you tried one thing and you felt duped or whatever it is.
A: Right.
L: Like there are so many reasons to have strong opinions about treatment.
A: Right.
L: At the end of the day, what I'm hearing from you is not everything works for everyone.
A: Exactly. It's subjective and personal and just giving ourselves permission to use whatever we need to use to feel our best.
L: Hmmmm.
A: And not adding again that layer of guilt or shame on top.
L: Yeah.
A: Cause we're already suffering.
L: Yeah.
A: In some ways.
L: I'm thinking about the times when you were earlier in your life, making sense of all of this sensitivity to your environments and that being such a vulnerable thing to go through. And I wonder if there are any stories back then that didn't work for you to make sense of... Why is this happening? Like was there a story that there's something wrong with you?
A: It's hard to say because it was always with me. I never remember a time not having eczema, not having allergies.
L: Yeah.
A: Not feeling different.
L: Mmhmm.
A: So it was always part of my narrative. And of course there were some times I would daydream like if this wasn't happening to me, how would I be different?
L: Mmhmm.
A: Would I feel more free? Would life feel easier? But knowing that there was a genetic component to it, it just felt like I accepted it.
L: Mmhmm.
A: So yeah, it's just always been with me.
L: Yeah.
A: It's hard to pull it apart.
L: Yeah. And I think this whole concept of relating to our bodies, it's kind of wild because we in many ways don't pick what our bodies do and how they are.
A: We don’t.
L: So I think there are just a lot of beliefs that can show up to help us that we can kind of either intentionally create or that show up because we, our unconscious is trying to protect us and I wonder how you make sense of it today. Like the role that your health challenges have played in your life.
A: They've really helped me see how strong I am and resilient I am well, how much I'm able to do this, right.
L: Mmhmm.
A: Some of these difficulties that I've had.
L: Yeah.
A: Where my body isn't working the way I want it to work. Yeah. It just really, it's been a teacher in a sense. Right. It's helped me realize that there is more going on than what's on the surface. It's, I mean it's really, it taught me how to take the, the path inward anyway. There's, this is what I'm seeing, but what's underneath.
L: Yeah.
A: And it's, it's informed my process. Around therapy, around my own self-exploration. Well, yeah, the deeper layers. And also realizing that, yeah, everything doesn't have to be perfect to pursue your interest in your dreams.
L: Ooh, I love that.
A: I'm not going to wait for my eczema to go away or do you know this. My healing going through this deeper healing journey, which I've got going on and I continue to be on, I'm not going to wait for that to be at the final phase before I start to live my life.
L: Yeah.
A: Everything's happening simultaneously and moving in and out.
L: Yeah.
A: So it's really helped me that I am okay just the way I am. And that took me a long time to get to, because when I was younger I thought, yeah, never going to have a relationship. I'm not going to be able to do the work I want to do cause I don't there. There were many times where I felt like I couldn't be in public because my skin was so terrible.
L: Mmmm.
A: And you know, when I was little I got stared at a lot and people are like, what's wrong with you? Or is it contagious? And there was a lot of experiences where I could tell people were uncomfortable looking at me. So even when I was starting to be a therapist, my skin was a lot better, but I still worry like, am I going to be able to sit in front of people, across from people and do this work? Because sometimes some days it's very uncomfortable to do that. To show up. And the commentary is uncomfortable.
L: Mmhmm.
A: And I've had clients say like, Oh, did you get a sunburn? Or like, you know, are you having allergies or something? And it's like, it brings attention on me that I necessarily don't want to be there.
L: Yeah.
A: In that role and also as a highly sensitive person, getting easily overstimulated, having eyes on you, it can be a lot.
L: Oh my gosh. Yeah.
A: Especially when you, yeah. You know, you can pick up on subtleties and body language when you realize people are judging you or they look kind of grossed out by you or they’re, they're wondering if there's something wrong with you.
L: Mmmm.
A: Yeah. We fill in the blanks.
L: Right. So, yeah. In those moments, I imagine there's a lot of internal regulating that happens for you.
A: Absolutely.
L: How do you manage in those moments?
A: I would say now I do a lot of grounding, breathing, mindfulness work. I mean there was a period of my life where I was, I think, well there are a lot of reasons, but one of them being my skin was so uncomfortable that I would disconnect from my body. I'm just probably, yeah. Disassociated with certain level, but now I just come back inside of my body. I just soothe myself essentially. You know, I'll have it. Yeah. Some self-compassionate inner dialogue.
L: Yeah.
A: Find the parts of my body that do feel good and, and safe.
L: Yeah.
A: Cause I think there's always a part of us that feels regulated and, and grounded.
L: Ooh, I love that idea. Yes.
A: And we'll find that idea and find that part. Right. And sometimes it's my feet. Sometimes it's just kinda like deep within my, my heart, but there's always someplace where I can find a little bit of safety.
L: It’s like the place of infinite peace that exists.
A: Yeah.
L: Even if it just feels like a glimmer in the moment, that you have a faith that it exists.
A: It does. And I'll get back there.
L: Yes. Yeah. And I think I just relate so much to those moments of, I want to just say it's sort of like unintentional reveal that happens. Like whether it's because you've got a physical symptom in your case, or for me, if I have something come up with my health that I can't not, I can't hide, you know?
A: Right.
L: And it's this vulnerability that wasn't chosen, which is different from an intentional self-disclosure.
A: That's right.
L: And when that happens, and it's not even just about health stuff, sometimes just cause I made a mistake, I did something that I don't feel great about and people saw me do it or I did it relationally. And I, you know, want to, I want to heal that relationship.
A: Mmhmm. Yeah.
L: Interestingly, when I look back on all those moments, there's fear that shows up in the, in that moment and also this opportunity to deepen the intimacy in that relationship.
A: Mmhmm.
L: It's like, Oh, you saw me being imperfect, or you saw me like I, you know, I couldn't find a word or I, you know, it was feeling really tired or couldn't show up to that event. And that's not how I want to present to the world. But you get to see a different part of me. And you get to see, like when somebody asks me, what is this chronic illness that you have? And I say, Oh, it's MS. and I can say it now because of all the time I've spent feeling shame about it. Now I can say it in a way that's kind of, no, and I'm not like excited. Like, Ooh, I have MS, but just more like this is normal because it's normal for me, cause I have, it does. There's no not having it for me.
A: Right. You have it.
L: Yeah.
A: And there's that sense of empowerment that I feel when you talk about it now.
L: Right. And, and that feeling inside of me that I get to authentically demonstrate because of all of the moments that have been hard is so different from just saying the words to someone. It's okay to have a chronic illness. Like that's an idea that I believe in. But then there's also just being it or saying or being willing to say, actually I don't want to talk about X, Y, and Z that you just asked me about and showing them that you're allowed to do that.
A: Yeah. Yeah. I love this cause there's, there's a lot of teaching here around being vulnerable and sometimes it's not our choice. We do get to step into being vulnerable and, and holding it in the way that we want to. And that sometimes includes setting boundaries around it.
L: Yeah.
A: And you're seeing this one piece that I may not have chosen to show you and you're seeing it.
L: And here it is.
A: Here it is. And I may or may not want to show you more.
L: Right.
A: That's my choice. And I like to always remind people that boundaries can change.
L: Yes.
A: Some days I wouldn't want to share more. Like today I'm very open to sharing. Other days it feels too, maybe too raw or too personal and I need to share less.
L: Totally. Yeah.
A: Just like some days I may be having a breakout on my face and I'm okay to go outside. Otherdays I choose not to because it's just too much that day.
L: Yes.
A: It just depends on what's in your bucket.
L: I love that because it goes back to my, I used the word improvisation a lot when I talk about managing my life with my body and knowing, being sensitive enough to my own rhythms and my own preferences in a given day. And is today more of like a cave day or is today a day when I want to just stick my toe in the water or do I want to like go out into an open field and throw my arms open and say, you can have me universe, you know, like there are different types of energy that can show up in one person.
A: Yeah.
L: Even if we have a label of being quote-unquote extroverted. Even if we have a label of being quote-unquote introverted or of being the creative one or a thinker, that those are just aspects of us that aren't all of us.
A: Mmhmm. Well that's it. We show up in different ways every single day. Right. So those different parts are going to take up more space on some days and less on others.
L: Yeah.
A: I think giving ourselves permission to be in flux.
L: Yeah.
A: To always be moving. Cause we are all living organisms. We're not static, we're not the same every day.
L: And being in flux is why we need to constantly pay attention to what's true for us in the moment. Um, it can be tricky too to realize that something has shifted. I think sometimes it's even having the mindful awareness that, oh, today I just feel like curling up in a ball and I can't figure out why. But I'm in the middle of, for example, let's say somebody is at work or whatever.
A: Mmhmm.
L: Today I just want to curl up in a ball.
A: Yes. Absolutely.
L: Well that's good information to have.
A: Yes.
L: And then you can start to say, oh, what were some of the signals? How, how might I have told them myself that sooner? And how can I pay attention for next time and what can I do in this moment?
A: Yeah. You can start to rewind the tape and see what, what happened at the beginning of this process for me and how can I recognize that later? And also checking in with yourself every day, bringing in mindfulness. Like what does my body need today?
L: Yeah.
A: That's totally different than yesterday. Or it's something that I've never given my body before.
L: Yes, I love that permission. There's a lot of permission in this conversation. So I, as you've been talking today, I had this vision of a series of permission statements.
A: Oh, I love them.
L: That kind of have been bubbling forth from you that like you've been sharing, like give yourself permission to have needs that are different. Give herself permission to pay attention. Give yourself permission to give yourself joy or to say no. So if you could magically transport yourself into the room or the car or the spot in nature where at each and every single listener is hearing us right now and you sit with them, what would you want them to know? Is there a series of statements that you would want them to have for their little toolbox or for their hearts?
A: I would, I myself in the listener's shoes and what I would want your listeners to hear is: Give yourself permission to say no. Give yourself permission to honor your own needs. Even when that looks different. I'd say give yourself permission to do what you love, even if no one else understands that. Give yourself permission to rest and then rest some more. Give yourself permission to feel all of your feelings. Most importantly, I would say give yourself permission to live a life on your own terms.
L: Thank you so much. I think we're going to put some music behind that and I was just like, wow, I, this is, it's almost like a little meditation you can listen to in a moment.
A: Yeah.
L: Tough moment or in a lovely moment.
A: Yeah.
L: It's so important to have those guideposts, those internal phrases that we can, that we can, um, come back to.
A: Yeah, absolutely. Cause no one, at least in my experience, no one is telling me those things. No one is saying yes. It's okay to live your life differently, which is... Oh, there's a sadness behind that because there's so much potential.
L: Mmm.
A: For joy and fulfillment and defined meeting. If we could only give ourselves permission for that.
L: Yes. Yes.
A: And we can.
L: That's the good news.
A: That's the great news. Exactly. That's it.
L: We can, and, and part of, I think for both of us as therapists, part of the work we do.
A: Yeah.
L: Sitting with someone.
A: Yeah.
L: As they tell us all the barriers that come up.
A: Yeah.
L: When we try to give that permission to ourselves and something catches us.
A: Yes. Right.
L: That's when it's like, come on in. We want to do that. We want to sit with you in that and work on, okay, so there's an obstacle showing up. How will we work with that obstacle instead of letting it take over your whole life and take you away from that permission to live a life of your dreams?
A: Yes, there will be obstacles.
L: Oh, yeah.
*Light laughter*
A: And many obstacles. There will be financial obstacles and physical obstacles and people telling you you can't do it or that it doesn't make sense. Do it anyway.
L: Do it anyway, I love it.
A: Right. Just know that the obstacles are a given. Just like for, I think for a lot of sensitive people, guilt is a given. It doesn't mean that it's not worth doing. It's not, you know, it's always worth prioritizing yourself.
L: Yes, absolutely. And it's also nice to surround yourself with environments and places and people who remind you of your capacity. That live a great life for yourself.
A: Yes.
L: Those fears and doubts show up and they will.
A: Yeah, they will.
L: And we turn to each other. Right?
A: Exactly.
L: Okay, so what does it mean to you to live a fulfilling life? And has your definition been impacted by your health challenges?
A: I would say live a fulfilling life has definitely been impacted by health challenges. If we take health challenges away, my life will look a lot different.
L: Yeah.
A: Right. Okay. And I find theirs a sense of um, soothing and the health challenges cause they help me be more intentional.
L: Mmmm.
A: Yeah. Let me slow down and really think about how its impacting my body and my health when I make choices. So what about the challenges. I'm still living a fulfilling life. A life that has meaning. And for me that that is, I'll go back to it. Living a life that I create that's on my own terms or I get to do work that is super fulfilling for me and impactful and create really beautiful relationships. It's really a, a curated life, right?
L: Yes.
A: Custom made life.
L: Exactly.
A: Yeah.
L: I love to say it. We are the curators of our lives because yeah, it is up to us in so many ways. Not, not everything, obviously.
A: Not everything. There's a lot of, this is not what I ordered stuff.
A: That's absolutely true. So, given that finding what we do have choice in right. And really leading into that.
L: Yeah, I love that. What are some funny moments that you've experienced?
A: You're going to ask you this question and I was like, honestly, I was like, I don't understand this question because nothing is funny.
L: Right, exactly.
A: I was stumped and dive into the reflecting upon it for the last week or so and trying to find the funny moments. This isn't all hard, so like what is funny? And there's a vulnerability in sharing the funny moments.
L: That makes sense. Yeah, that totally makes sense.
A: The only things that I could come up with, I was just thinking about like how I joke about how much time I spent lotioning every my whole life. I'll tell you.
*Laughter*
L: What percentage?
A: If I could add up the hours that I've spent lotioning and like caring for my skin what could I do with that? Just kind of funny. The thing like I'm like, I'm tied to the lotion bottle.
L: Right? I could've written several novels.
A: Or just like when I, like in the springtime my eyes will puff up in an imbalanced way. So I thought like my allergy eye is like this monster cause like my one eye is it looks a lot different. And then I was talking to my cousin...it’s funny, you mentioned cousin at the beginning before we started and uh, she was saying like, Oh my eye does this weird thing. And she's like, I thought I was a freak. And I was like, you're not a freak. Like I have it too. And I know lots of other people that have it. Cause I've Googled it.
L: Yes.
A: So it's this weird thing where just one of your eyes will swell up and I was like, it's just the allergy. I like, it's just that joking about it.
L: Yeah.
A: So there is, there are layers of humor where you can make fun of it or you can laugh. Like it's not all so serious, which is such a relief to have some levity.
L: Totally.
A: We're just thinking of me like, yeah, always like my nose is constantly running and like, oh, I'm just going to shove a tissue up there and people will send you funny memes or about that.
L: Yes.
A: Right?
L: Thank goodness for the memes.
A: Exactly.
L: Like just looking at some of the cartoons or the memes where I'm like, okay, somebody else gets this.
A: Somebody gets it.
L: Right.
A: And there's joy in that. Oh yeah. I'm not going to do this by myself.
L: Yes. Actually, you know what I'm remembering is one time, one time you were going in for light treatment.
A: Uh huh.
L: And so I think I sent you a message. It was like, I'm going to imagine you being beamed by rainbows or something. And then I found like a graphic of a unicorn or something and it like fit perfectly.
A: Yeah.
: And I was like, yes, this is exactly what it is. Like I'm going to imagine that that's what's happening to you. And kind of, sometimes I do like a creative visualization as a prayer for friends. Like imagining them just surrounded by magic and it was like a sweet little moment of connection.
A: That’s funny. I do remember that when I was getting light therapy or UV therapy for my skin, you just thinking like, Oh, I can imagine that I'm being infused with anything.
L: Anything you could choose.
A: I could choose. Right.
L: That was actually, yeah, that's what happened at the infusion center for me was when I was getting steroids. Right at the beginning of my MS journey. And every now and then I would like turn to my friend and say, do I have super powers yet? Like do I have the ability to fly? Is that what's going into my veins?
A: I think it's important to think about what we're putting in our bodies as something that's helping us because it's easy for me, it's easy to think about, oh, these are chemicals that I'm putting on my body.
L: Yeah.
A: What are, what's the long term implication of this and then realize like, no, this is actually helping me. This is helping me have a better life. This might actually save my life. Yeah. If I didn't use these medications, I don't know what situation I would be in.
L: Yeah.
A: So actually having gratitude that these exist versus letting maybe some of the, the self-doubts come in or the external voices that say it's not okay to use whatever treatments and I was like, oh no, actually I have to.
L: Right.
A: There's some situations where you have to use certain interventions and let that be okay if that's what you need.
L: Right.
A: Have again, that self-acceptance.
L: Knowing that even with that, like you can imagine.
A: Hmm.
L: Any, you can infuse your infusion with that you want.
A: Exactly.
L: Like I remember one time I actually put in my calendar instead of like infusion day, I wrote joy infusion. What if this is just going to infuse more joy into my body and my spirit? Um, you know, obviously this is a story like I'm making up a story, but yeah, pretty much everything's a story.
A: Well and our thoughts have a very powerful reaction on our bodies.
L: Yeah.
A: So if we can reframe that experience then...
L: There we have it.
A: There we have it. I love the face. You made your...we can reframe that.
L: So, okay, the last one here, what do you have now that you might not have had without your health challenges?
A: I want to say an appreciation for what does work. Yeah. There's nothing is absolute. So there are many parts of my body that I struggle with. Um, many things my body does that I don't like and I wish it wouldn't do that or that don't make sense. But also it helps me realize and feel gratitude for what is working for the parts of my body that are really healthy.
L: Mmhmm.
A: Because I think, you know, it's, it's always pretty nuanced.
L: Yeah.
A: Because it would be, it's, there have been times where I just focused on the frustration that I was having or the difficulties I was having. But I would say now I focus on, okay, I'm having this experience and I'm also feeling vibrant in these other ways.
L: Yeah.
A: And can I hold both.
L: I like that cause there's no, you know, I think about like headaches when I have them sort of take over. It just like that's all there. It sort of feels like so when they go away it's, it's this light is shining and you know, it's like the clouds have parted and now everything's great. But if I woke up on a given day, having not had a headache in a long time, I wouldn't be like, today's a great day. Non-headache sensation in my head, you know?
A: Right.
L: There isn't that contrast unless you experience what doesn't work.
A: It's true. It's just, I have a great appreciation for it.
L: That's so cool. Yeah. Well the last part is for you to finish the sentence.
A: Okay. So I know you love sentence stems.
L: I do love sentence stems. That is a thing that I love. Finish the sentence: This is not what I ordered…
A: This is not what I ordered and it's exactly what I needed.
L: Mmmm. Wow. There's such power in that.
A: Mmhmm.
L: It's like a balance of receiving and giving that's almost what I'm feeling.
A: Exactly. Because there's so many things in our lives that are difficult or feel like hardships and all those things that have happened to me helped me get here and they helped form the person I am today and I wouldn't want to be any different.
L: Yeah.
A: So it may sound counterintuitive that it's like, oh, I'm, I needed this challenge. I did. I did. Because it's given me a lot of wisdom and positive experiences along with it.
L: That's beautiful. And it really, I mean no coincidence that we're friends. I love talking about this stuff with you and I really love that you are able to share this time with me in a more public way.
A: Me too!
L: Because this was really fun.
A: And this has been a, it's a beautiful process for me and getting more in touch with this part of myself. It's been something I've been wanting to do. And when you invited me on the podcast, I said yes. But then later I was like, am I ready to be vulnerable in this area? I've been working on vulnerability a lot this year. Like, is this an area that I'm ready to share?
L: Mmhmm.
A: And it felt really good to talk about it.
L: I'm just so glad. And I do, I think this is a great moment to acknowledge everyone who's been on the show as having shown up in a vulnerable way.
A: Absolutely.
L: It is, it's so revealing.
A: It's very revealing. And the stories are touching. Whenever I listen to an episode of like, I really feel like I get a sense of those people, it's really beautiful.
L: It is. And it's a gift that, that folks share what's true for them at that moment in time or a story and, and that it is, it is vulnerable and it is really also incredibly powerful every time.
A: Yeah.
L: I hear these stories and perspective and I'm like….
A: Yes, these people are out there persevering and living these amazing lives.
L: Yeah.
A: While holding health challenges.
L: Yeah. And, and experiencing those really dark moments and then talking about it publicly, you know, it's like when we talked about that, it's like, oh, wait a second. Maybe it's okay to have really crummy parts of the journey.
A: Right. Well, I think you're really normalizing that with this podcast. It's like it's okay to be your full self, right. To not have to hide the parts that are less desirable away or that aren't socially acceptable.
L: Right.
A: Or that, yeah. Show all of you.
L: Yeah. Yeah. And that, that is absolutely a journey. And I think sometimes it helps to hear other people modeling it.
A: It really does.
L: Oh, that's one way of being with that thing. Okay, cool.
A: Mmhmm.
L: Yeah. Well, thanks April for joining me.
A: Thank you.