Episode 66: Race + What We Don't Say
Guest: Celia Hilson
Lauren: Welcome to this is not what I ordered, a podcast on full hearted living with chronic illness and health challenges. I'm your host, Lauren Selfridge. I'm a licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in California. The idea behind this podcast is that you get a chance to listen to the many ways that people approach living their lives with health challenges. There's no one right way. So keep in mind that what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for all of us. The information in this interview is not medical advice, and it doesn't take the place of a relationship with a licensed mental health professional or a doctor. You can check out this is not what I ordered dot com to get more information and resources. L: Today I'm sitting with Celia Hilson. You may remember Celia from season two episode 28. Celia is a relational therapist, social justice educator, and intuitive narrative coach fostering cross cultural understanding. She helps clients to heal through remembering and reclaiming lost parts of identities. She specializes in chakra energy healing, intuitive, grounding, and expressive journaling. Celia has joined me over the past few months, not only as my friend, but as someone who I recently hired as a social justice consultant for the podcast. As you know, we've been in the midst of a racial justice movement in the midst of a pandemic, all at the same time. And it's been a really challenging, powerful period for our world. And during that time, for the folks who have been on our email list for the podcast, there have been different ways to be involved in the conversation around racial justice, and also during that time, Celia and I recorded a really special conversation talking about race. And what we've done is made a two part series of episodes. And today is part one of that conversation. Before we get started, I'd like to thank Podigy, the editors of this is not what I ordered. If you'd like to connect with a wonderful editing team for your podcast, you can visit Podigy.co and mention this is not what I ordered to get 50% off your first month of editing. I'd also like to thank the patrons of the podcast and it's because of your support that we were able to continue this season three for a few more episodes, and also to keep creating content that's meaningful and supportive to folks all over the world living with health challenges, especially in the midst of the pandemic. So if you'd like to help support the podcast, you can at thisisnotwhatiordered.com/support. Well, Celia, thanks for joining me for this conversation. Celia: Mhm, thank you.
L: It's been a few seasons since you were on the podcast last.
C: Yes, it has been. I don't even know how long.
L: Two years.
C: Two years.
L: Yeah.
C: It feels longer.
L: It does. It feels like a while.
C: It does feel longer.
L: And I so appreciate and remember that day sitting together in your living room, and just what unfolded. We didn't neither of us really expected it to unfold the way it did.
C: No, I didn't.
*Laughter*
C: I didn't. I was nervous. But I was also excited. And curious, actually, I didn't know what was going to unfold. And just thinking about just sort of even considering everything that I had experienced around my body just kind of shocked me actually. As we were talking about it. You know, one of my takeaways was well, I had no idea. So it was enlightening in that way. That was a gift. And the other gift was coming full circle with you thinking about, you know, just our work before that, and sort of sitting in another iteration of that was really cool.
L: It was cool.
C: And it was my first podcast.
L: That's exciting. I didn't realize that.
C: Yes, I've never done a podcast. I've never done a podcast. Yeah. So I felt pretty special.
L: You are and that's what's so neat about it as we get to. I feel like with each episode, we get to dive deep.
C: That’s true.
L: And spend time bearing witness but it's also you. I'm remembering that conversation where we talked about trauma from these multiple collisions, vehicle collisions and injuries, that it was an unfolding of you bearing witness to yourself too.
C: Yes, yes. And I had, I think what you offered was a reflection that I had not had the opportunity to do in all those years.
L: Yeah.
C: I was so busy doing the work on my body, but I was not thinking about how it impacted my spirit. So that part, you know, was really eye opening. It's almost like I kept, I had the spiritual life, but the story of my body was not included in that.
L: Hmm.
C: If that makes sense.
L: Absolutely. There's a disconnection, a temporary disconnection.
C: Yes. I'm always talking about people neck up. But I'm realizing that I was. I was in a way not neck up, but it's almost like I've been doing a lot of work around my root, and my root chakra. If anyone knows about root chakras, the root is about survival. It's about groundedness and trust and safety. And so I think I was on this unconscious kind of long journey to even make that connection. So I think that conversation was the beginning of that interview was the beginning of thinking about my disconnect in my root, because where I got hit every time actually was in my root. my tailbone. Ooh, I'm just now thinking about that, because I don't even think I said that. in that interview. I didn't even make that connection. So it makes sense to me that my root has been calling me all this time.
L: Oh, yes. Yes.
C: So yeah, this is the next part of that. I think. Oh, you learn all kinds of stuff on Lauren’s This is not what I ordered cause that's not what I ordered.
*Laughter*
L: Totally.
C: I didn't know we was gonna hit on that. I love when that happens.
L: It's really cool. It's like living the curriculum of life. You know, whatever.
C: Oh, I like that.
L: Whatever’s brought to us. And often in packages we didn't, we didn't desire. You know?
C: That's a, that's a title of a book, though. The curriculum of life.
L: Yeah.
C: I like that.
L: Well, you know why I like to say that, is it gives meaning to my pain.
C: Hmm.
L: It gives purpose as well. It's not like, this thing is happening to teach me something necessarily. It's that I choose to learn something from this. You know?
C: That's powerful. And what I heard, the difference I heard in that is that you're claiming your power, rather than waiting for it to come to you.
L: That's right.
C: Yeah.
L: And I know also hearing the phrase everything happens for a reason can be really spiritually invalidating to so many people. You know, it's like okay, Well, thanks. Does that mean that this doesn't hurt? Cuz it does.
C: Yeah.
L: So you and I have talked about, we've been talking for the past few months now. We reconnected, I don't remember exactly when to start dialoguing just to catch up. And you and I, what unfolded in that conversation was that you and I were interested in having another episode together. And at the time, we didn't know what it would be. And I think what might make the most sense is to to go back into the history of our connection, and orient for folks who are listening so that we can have a conversation about what's going on with us in the context of the world, in the context of the social justice, racial justice movement that we're in the midst of.
C: Mm hmm, absolutely.
L: That didn't just begin a few months ago, but that had shifted.
C: Oh, no.
L: Yeah, that's it that has shifted in such a visible way in the past few months.
C: Yeah, no, no, no in a radical way, I would say. And again, you know, and the word radical is actually root. So here we go again with that connection, that root.
L: The root. Tell me, tell me about the radical connection with the root.
C: Well, that came to my mind when you said, a radical. I think you said our radical reconnection or a radical connection, something like that.
L: I don't know. I didn't even know I said that.
C: Yes, you did. Or my ear caught that word. But I'm marveling at these kind of lightbulb moments. And so I had to take a second because I wanted to grab what you just said. But that word radical jumped out before I could pull in the whole thought, because radical root is root, I believe. Is the root of radical or something like that? And so, my my brain and my heart went, Oh, yeah. And the preface you gave was how we reconnected.
L: Yeah.
C: Right?
L: Mm hmm.
C: And I think it was just for me it was, I want to check in with Lauren and see how long it's doing. There was so much going on in the world. And, you know, as your friend, it was, it was also just checking in to see how you were doing physically. And I think really, that was kind of the root of that connection. And then once we connected, this larger conversation started to happen, and I'm not sure which thread I would pull, because a number of things happened that sort of pulled us in that direction. I don't know if I can pinpoint one. But I do know apart from “how’s Lauren doing?” I had seen them on your email list. So I saw one of the one of your upcoming events, and I was like, Ah, that's how it started. And I was like, oh, wow, Lauren's out here doing some amazing things. What’s up? We're gonna see what's going on with this little. I think it was a fireside chat or something like that.
L: Yeah.
C: And I went online, and I saw you and then I think I had that sort of prompt, if you will, check in with Lauren, see how she's doing and see what's up. And so I waited, kind of waited till I was ready, because I had gone underground for a while, you know, I was thinking about all these people and how people were doing. And so when, I when I was able to come out of that, not fully, but I think you were one of those people that were on my mind to check in with. Oh, yeah.
L: Yeah. And you had months previous I was going through something. And I had shared with you a little bit about it. And then I didn't share as much after and I was kind of like, you know, I think you and I were both going through our own times of challenge and recovery. C: Yes. L: And it was really neat to hear from you. And I remember I went for a walk by the ocean, and we were talking together.
C: Yes. Ah, that's right.
L: Yeah, it was sort of like, in my world, you were walking on the beach with me.
C: Mm hmm. I remember that. Oh, thank you for bringing that up because my memory is just like, you know, it'll jump those gaps sometimes. And I love when you fill in the blank with those details. And so it's coming back to me very clearly that walk on the beach is coming back clearly to me that check in and I'm thinking about, you know, the word that comes to my mind is growing pains and I, I felt like I had, I was going through that. At the same time I was checking in with you and checking in with other things that were going on in the world. So, yeah, I remember that breeze, hearing that breeze on your phone as you were walking and going under the bridge. And yeah, that was a, that was a special, special conversation.
L: It was and it also started some conversation between the two of us that I think led to our recalling the roots of our friendship from about a decade ago when we studied together in the social justice education program at UMass.
C: Yes, Damn. Lauren. That was a decade ago. That's crazy. I think it's been longer than that.
L: Yeah. It's probably been like 12 years or more.
C: So, 2009. Yeah, yeah. Well, we started in 2006.
L: Yeah, you and I partnered up on an independent study together and we did our best.
*Laughter*
C: Yeah, I remember that. L: We did our best to create, I think we were trying to create something that we there was this dialogue program that wasn't active at the time, even though you and I both wanted to engage in that program. So we said, All right, we'll do it for ourselves.
C: Mm hmm. That was a tough undertaking. Yeah. I think we were pretty brave to do what we did at that time. Actually.
L: Yeah. And I think in a way, it felt brave. But in another way, it didn't feel brave, brave, if that makes sense.
C: Yes, tell me more.
L: Another way to say was, I think about how much I trusted you but even back then, and to me, I feel emboldened when I'm working in collaboration with someone or someone's that I deeply trust, and then it feels like an adventure. So that's…
C: Yeah, so you were courageous. I didn't feel courageous doing that, you know, in fact, I knew there was gonna be a little pushback. And so in that sense, to me, it was courageous.
L: Mm hmm.
C: Because here you have this co facilitation between a white woman black woman, targeting the very audience that we represent, to have a dialogue. And so that was very radical. And I wouldn't say for that time, per se, but because it's one of those things that is still difficult to facilitate at times, or to bring into a space just because of our history. Now, and I'm also aware that we did, we have not given a context for this, as we're talking about it and you want to say more about that.
L: The recollection I have is that we co created a group dialogue curriculum.
C: Yes.
L: And approach to have it not it's, I forget what we called it, but it was a dialogue between people who identify as women.
C: Yep. L: Who either identify as white or black, not just people of color, but black women and white women. Is that right?
C: Yes. Yes, that is right. And it had to do with getting up under the tensions of difficulty between those two groups and how we operate, what we say, what we don't say. And mostly what we don't say that creates discord that creates, the word that comes to me is distrust so that was that was the focal point actually. And I think at the time when we were trying to come up with, when we were asked to come up with different dialogues to have or things to create. That was one of the ones that came up for me, you know, because we were looking at oppression, we were looking at privilege, we were looking at dominance, we were looking at all of these isms. And what we have talked about, and I always felt that, that was within the space that we were in that tension, and sometimes it was spoken, and sometimes it was unspoken. And that was something that I wanted to explore more, because I've always found myself sort of sitting in the middle of those spaces. And my experience at that time was, folks were either sitting on one side of the room or the other side.
L: Mmmm.
C: And it wasn't a conscious thing. I'm someone who observes closely, my environment around me and what people do and how they're interacting. I kind of think of myself like a surveillance camera. Sometimes those little nuances communicate a lot to me, that might come from my theater background, the study of all of those little details. So I just, the word that's coming to my mind as I'm trying to language this is intuition.
L: Yeah.
C: So I intuited and had a felt sense that there were a lot of elephants in the room that been stomping around all the time.
L: Yeah.
C: And so from my own personal experience, it was almost like I was feeling this inner earthquake all the time.
L: Wow.
C: And one of those earthquakes was, I know that I have an inherent distrust of white women. Where does that come from? Why is that there and what is separating us. Even though I have very close relationships with white women in my life, I found myself holding back certain things that I would want to say, and I don’t know if fear is the right word, I was cautious of not being construed as an angry woman, or an angry black woman or not being compassionate. So, one example of that for me was, I found that in, in my relationships with white women, they were very, I felt like they had permission to express and emote in ways that I had to watch myself. So that was one of the questions I had and I was like, I wonder if people would be willing to have that conversation?
L: Yes.
C: And we find out they weren't.
L: Yeah.
C: Because we had to sort of recruit. And I remember calling black women in the community and I can tell you categorically, one after the others would say, one of two things: flat out No, or no, I'm not ready.
L: Hmm. And that says so much.
C: Yeah. And I think it's interesting to look back on that. And Fast Forward where we are now.
L: Yeah. Well, I want to acknowledge and appreciate the, not just one but many elephants in the room, the language that you gave that and also just that, you're saying it out loud, because that's kind of going against the rules of that unconscious programming, or maybe conscious at this point. Because you see it. But there's this silence that protects the elephants.
C: Yeah, right.
L: And what I'm hearing from you is there's this distrust of white women. And there's a sense of how can I operate in the space in a way that doesn't get me sort of points against me based on race?
C: Yes.
L: Because you were seeing white women able to have this sort of full range of emotion and expression and a, maybe even just like an ease is the word that I thought but you call it permission. Yeah, permission to just be and express, which I also want to validate and say, absolutely. I rarely, if ever think about how what I'm expressing might be viewed based on my race.
C: Mmm. L: I just don't think people are going to assume I'm the blank white woman for acting a certain way.
C: Mmhmm.
L: That's the invisibility, it’s like an invisibility of my race. And in a way in that context. Even though whiteness is quite overly visible other ways.
C: That’s true.
L: But just to what you're talking about. It's funny because I feel when you say it, a simultaneous tensing up in my body. Right when you said that. And this other thing, which was a relief, like the opposite of tense, because you were naming it.
C: Yeah.
L: And then I was like, well, I kind of feel honored that you're naming it with me.
C: Mm hmm. Well, and I think that has to do with years of trust. And I don't think that was automatically there when we started work. No, it wasn't when we started working together.
L: Yeah. Right. And in that actually, it's interesting you say that because of what I said a little earlier in our conversation, which was I trust Celia. Back then I was like, This is gonna be an adventure. Now. Look at that. Yeah, look at that.
C: Mm hmm. I think it's hilarious.
*Laughter*L: Oh, that's nice.
C: I mean, I could laugh about it now. I remember just comparing myself wo much. I felt like the identified women in that group, for lack of a better way to put it just seemed like they had it together.
L: Mm hmm.
C: And I know that's not true at all. I think the word I'm looking for. There was, there's a, there's a when I say that, I think I mean academically, not emotionally, but the academic piece impacted me emotionally.
L: Hmm.
C: So when you and I were working together, that distrust came from Lauren's on top of her stuff. Now, I didn't know if that was true or not, based on the presentation on my perception of that, like, there's going to also be permission granted. I felt like often the white women in the room were anointed in a way.
L: Hmm.
C: And white folks in the room are kind of anointed. So I'm, this is me making that up. In my mind, I'm using that word. Because in the academy and in the institution, that's not my experience, the anointed to me, I mean is you get chosen to experience certain pathways based on privilege, whether it's taking a test or writing a paper, or presenting something very quote unquote, articulate. And so, all of those labels to me, you know, I was sort of projecting on to you. Because that had always been my experience with white women.
L: Yeah.
C: They get to say what they want when they want bla bla bla bla bla, you don't get to behave that way. Celia, because if you do, this is how you are going to be perceived.
L: Hmm. I'm just taking that in for a moment.
C: Me too.
L: You know, there's this heaviness to just how much forethought goes into each action on your part. It's like you're living under the weight of so many projections. And the word prove comes into my mind when I hear people talk about this very real, palpable sense of who's worthy and who's not. Really it's not about who's worthy. It's about who we're taught is worthy, capable, competent, enough.
C: Yes. L: And so what I just heard you describe was this assumption that I heard you own it. You said, well, that's my projection, or that's my story.
C: Mmhmm.
L: And just to situate that you didn't you weren't the originator of the story, right?
C: Correct.
L: This was taught to you, it was it was also taught to me about who I am and my worthiness and how I'm capable, do anything, and it's assumed, it is assumed when I show up to the table as a white woman, I think by many including you and I, you know, when we come to the table, quote unquote, that, that I'm prepared or I'm enough, I don't have to prove anything, right, is the story, the cultural story?
C: Yes.
L: And then what I'm hearing from you is, where does that put you in the room, you could see all this, this the thickness in the air of these stories, but then also, there's the internalized sense that you just mentioned, which is I have to show certain elements of myself to show that I'm prepared. I'm ready. I have what it takes or I demonstrate my worthiness. Is that right?
C: Exactly. Yes, that is right. And furthermore, I cast you in the role of being better.
L: Right.
C: And because I made you better, I trusted you less.
L: Hmm, that makes so much sense. Because then, because there's the humanization that happens when we're on the same level is taken away.
C: Say that again.
L: When, when you and I are at the same level and what I mean by, of course, we're at the same level, but right in terms of worthiness and humanity. But when we start to both of us and anyone listening, when we start to rank, I feel like it takes away our humanity.
C: Yeah, that's tricky. I agree. So maybe rank is not the word rank. Rank is the right word in the sense that I've often been in situations where people rank oppression, or even privilege for that matter. What's difficult about that is our history. What does history say? And who gets left out? In? Let me, let me back up a little bit, because I have three or four different thoughts going on at the same time. And that's, I think that's my spirit saying slow down. There's a lot because we're pulling up from the root in this conversation. And so one example I often use is, when I used to hear people say, color doesn't matter, we're all the same. Race doesn't matter, we're all the same. I would often hear this mostly in the spiritual community, but I would hear it in other places too. And my response would later be okay, from a humanistic point of view. We are all equal, however, in this suit that I were called, constructed as, fill in the blanks, black woman, single mom, blah, blah, blah. All of those inform my experience. And so once someone says we're all the same or it doesn't matter, then all of those things get negated even if they were constructed. But because they were constructed in such a way that we lived it out to the degree that not only are we oppressed, we are traumatized by a history that has rooted us to that construction. So I can't just now say, Oh, well, you know, race is a construction. That's true. But now I'm living that experience that was constructed for me. So I can't just take the suit off. And this suit, I own, I wear like a cape now. Because it's, it is a badge of being black, being a black woman is a badge for me. You know, it's a badge of...honor is not the right word. It's sacred.
L: Mm hmm.
C: With the ranking piece and why I think different groups of people get into disharmony about it. Because really, what we're ranking is our understanding of how we've gotten, how we become invisible. We're invisible in terms of what we need, but we're invisible in terms of what we deserve. Right. But we're visible in terms of what has been taken.
L: Yeah.
C: If that makes sense?
L: Well, absolutely, it makes sense. And you really, it's so important to acknowledge the history of oppression and trauma that support this story, the series of stories about who you are.
C: Mm hmm.
L: Because there are some ways that you would tell me if I'm getting this, but there are a few ways that you feel unseen for that, in the every day, and yet you feel it so deeply. And then there are other ways where there's this overseeing of the story.
C: Yeah.
L: Right?
C: Yeah.
L: That re reify, I guess, is the word, the old pain that we haven't healed yet.
C: That’s right.
L: Even in the silent little moments. Like, back then. And now, when you and I are orienting just as friends.
C: Mm hmm.
L: That there's this inner dialogue going on. That there are these assumptions about who's worthy and how to prove it and who, and coming back to that statement that I said about taking away from our humanity, I want to make sure that I also acknowledge the system of oppression is what's taking away our humanity, yours and mine.
C: Absolutely.
L: And I don't think, that's also important to understand. Like, I think I've heard plenty of white people say, Well, why don't you just adopt a story of abundance? Celia, you know, why don't you just…
*Laughter*
C: I've been down that road.
L: Yeah, right. But that's what and that's why I think it's important right now, in this conversation what you just said, because we very well could have gone down the path of, oh, we're all worthy spiritual beings. Let's just agree that we're all worthy.
C: Yeah. And I bought into that story, hook, line and sinker. I mean, that, that used to be my mantra, you know, well Kind of like what you were saying earlier too about when we have an experience. We're not asking for that. Yeah, there's that piece. And I want to grab something. You said a few minutes ago, I had another aha moment. And the word that jumped out was overseer. And the irony of that is that that is a direct descendant of oppression. If you think about it.
L: Ooh.
C: I know. Come on with it.
L: You're laying it out. Yeah.
C: Yes. So there is a direct lineage to the concept that I did and lived experience of an overseer, you know, over black bodies. So that lineage and I will say this as a MFT, as a family therapist, as an intergenerational therapist, I understand intergenerational trauma that is a direct link. And so going back to this idea of the root, even, so my history, my lineage, my ancestors were on the ground daily, were in the ground daily. So from a symbolic and from an oppressive point of view, that root is literal for me. So what's in the ground? What's on the ground? I feel very deeply from an ancestral place. So part of what I've been trying to unhook my 50 some odd years, is understanding how the intergenerational trauma of that is deeply wired in me. And how can I from a root perspective...so when I say root, I'm thinking of all the lines, from the trees from the plants. Everything that's growing underneath the ground that’s tethered. How do I unhook from that, but still hold the sacredness of what has been passed down to me?
L: Thank you so much for joining me and Celia for part one of a two part conversation on race. You can tune in in two weeks to listen to our second half of the conversation. And if you'd like to check out the show notes for this episode, you can go to thisisnotwhatIordered.com/episode66. You're also welcome to join us in the online discussion community for this is not what I ordered by visiting thisisnotwhatiordered.com/cafe. As always, you can find us on social media at @NWIOpodcast on Twitter and Instagram and on Facebook, you can find us at facebook.com/thisisnotwhatiordered. Take good care of yourself and I'll talk to you in two weeks.