Episode 64: Enjoying the Non-Sense
Guests: Sherry Espinosa and Melissa Platt
Lauren: Sherry and Melissa, thank you so much for joining me today for this special quarantine reunion episode.
Melissa: Thank you so much for having us.
Sherry: Yes. Thank you, Lauren.
Lauren: And let's just start out what's on all three of our minds, which is what we just went through for the past hour. I think it's actually a really important background information for our conversation today, because I want to appreciate both of you for sticking it out to deal with all the technical elements of making this recording happen.
Melissa: Yeah, that was fun.
Sherry: Yeah, I thought it was fun!
Lauren: You know, it's funny because it's like ... Just to give a little bit of a summary, we were trying to figure out a way to record and not have feedback come into the recording, so that there were like echos of our voices. I think each of us had our own experience of it. For me, I think I ... Well, actually no, let me just get back to the summary.
So, Melissa, your hearing aid is able to connect through Bluetooth.
Melissa: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: And something was happening with the Bluetooth connection, where it was still projecting some sound out into the environment, and then it was getting picked up and doubling back. And my voice was coming out super clearly in your recording, which is ... We were just trying to solve the mystery of how to get all of our voices on separate tracks. I think I asked you to reconnect, Melissa, like seven or eight times?
Melissa: Something like that. We knew we'd get it eventually.
Lauren: And meanwhile, I think what was going on for me was ... I think I just felt guilty for, kind of, quote unquote, making you all go through that, just for this podcast. I was running in the back of my mind a whole thing about, "I'm putting you through this," or whatever. And meanwhile, Melissa, you shared your behind the scenes thoughts, too.
Melissa: Yeah, that there wouldn't be this feedback echo thing if I could use earbuds. But I can't use earbuds because I wear hearing aids, and so I can't hear through them. And so, we thought we'd meet 15 minutes early to get things set up with the audio and it'd be no problem. And it was like ... a little over an hour.
And, in the back of my mind, it was like, "Don't apologize, don't apologize. That's internalized ableism, it's not your fault. This is just how it is, you don't have to apologize," and like, this kind of like gritting my teeth against the guilt.
Lauren: Totally.
Sherry: Yeah.
Lauren: Yes. And that's how ableism works, is that it gives us the impression that it has something to do with our individual selves. Like, "There's something wrong with me." This idea that, "I'm the problem, I'm the reason we have to go through this." And I was so glad you shared that with us because I think part of me was also worried about you feeling like this was your fault. And I'm like, "Oh good!" You said that out loud so that we could sit with you in it, and first of all be like, "It's totally not you. This is a technology issue."
Melissa: I think there's something about this context too, Lauren, where I know you and I know Sherry, and I know This is Not What I Ordered, and it's like, "This is the perfect situation for this to come up in." And then, by letting that reality be there of, "Nobody's judging me, and this is going to be ... potentially add to the content of the episode."
Lauren: Yeah!
Melissa: Then it became this really fun thing where Sherry and I decided that we were launching a space shuttle, and stuff. And Sherry got to say, "Houston, we have a problem."
Sherry: I couldn't help it. I had fun, so ...
Lauren: I know it was so funny because, at one point ... And then I was also thinking about everybody's energy levels and I was like, "Oh no, am I putting you out, Sherry?" Because maybe you're tired.
Sherry: I know, right?
Lauren: Which is all I'm trying ... Meanwhile, if I had brain fog right now, I don't even know if I could have come up with some of the ideas that we came up with.
Sherry: That's true! I mean, that's actually kind of exciting, that all three of us did this successfully with our underlying issues that we have.
Lauren: Yeah, and a special credit on this episode goes to Sherry's daughter who donated her computer, so that we could use Sherry's computer for video, Sherry's phone for audio, and Sherry's daughter's phone for recording her separate track. So, thank you.
Sherry: And then we can also thank the quarantine, because otherwise my daughter wouldn't be home right now, because she would be at the office. Yeah!
Lauren: That's true! And I don't think we would all be meeting for this reunion episode.
Sherry: No, it's true. Yeah! It's true.
Lauren: Thank you, quarantine, for that.
Sherry: Yeah!
Melissa: Thanks, quarantine.
Lauren: So I want to check in with both of you. Because we all got to speak this season, season three, in separate interviews. One for you, Sherry, and one for you, Melissa. And one of the things we talked about was the potential of doing an episode, like a friendship episode, where I kind of interview you both. And meanwhile, the quarantine happened, this pandemic is going on, and I decided that a fun way for us to all connect, including listeners, is to kind of bring back people who have been on the show before, who we already know and have some intimacy in understanding their stories, and kind of all come together and talk in a community setting about how it's been, since it could be very isolating.
And so, now I kind of feel like this interview is serving a double purpose of being a friendship interview about the two of you and your friendship, but also about how it's been going since we last spoke on the podcast.
Melissa: Yeah.
Lauren: So I just thought I'd start by asking, how have each of you been since we all last heard from you?
Melissa: How long has it been, like eight weeks or something of quarantine?
Lauren: Yeah.
Melissa: So there's like the pre-quarantine, "How have you been?" And then after that and right now, it's hard to remember before that. I feel like the shelter-in-place situation has ... I think one of the things that I talked about in my solo episode with you, Lauren, was a lot about listening in and how my hearing loss has made it so that sometimes, when I'm having a flare up, I have to listen to myself because there aren't a lot of other options. And the shelter-in-place has been doing the same thing.
I live alone. Well, now I live with an adorable kitten. Not totally alone, but I don't live with any other humans so there's been more alone time and more opportunities to listen in. And I also had a flare up for a couple of weeks, that I just came out of maybe a week ago. And so then, it's the aloneness, and the not being able to hear and the disorientation, and all of that combined, to just force me to hang out with me more.
I'm doing really well ... for the most part. There's sort of this awareness of the era of pandemic, and somebody described it as feeling like in the eye of the hurricane. Like there can be this sense of peace, and at the same time, awareness of, "There's something going on out there," and trying to grapple with, "What is this? How does this all make sense?"
Overall, I feel like I'm doing pretty well.
Lauren: I appreciate that intentional frame that you put around this time and space, where you're kind of seeing the parallel between your time spent listening in, through hearing loss, and going in and out of being able to hear more and less. But that also there's this sort of solitude, which is a different ... It's the same kind of energy as silence, in a way, or at least they're cousins, or something.
Melissa: Mm-hmm, they are cousins!
Lauren: And you're spending time ... like more with yourself.
Melissa: Yeah.
Lauren: And what you just said about that there's a peace to that but then there's also something else, that's not peace, maybe. Like, both at the same time. Knowing that there's something outside in the world that's happening, and that is really impactful and changing everything in many ways.
Melissa: Yeah. And there's a parallel with the chronic sensory health stuff of ... that there is a peace to that and also the awareness of disconnection. What feels like disconnection on the surface, but then kind of going deep ... Being forced to go deeper beneath that and find the connection within the disconnection.
Lauren: I feel like it takes this poetic weaving together of a story, to kind of even see it that way. And it's kind of cool.
Melissa: I feel like we're being forced to poetically weave together stories right now.
Sherry: Yeah, for sure.
Lauren: Totally! How have you been doing, Sherry, since we last heard from you on the podcast?
Sherry: I've been doing well. I'm in and out. You know, different ... I have times where I have ... There are periods of time and I have times where I ... bad periods of time, where my fatigue and just all my symptoms are flared and I can't really do much of anything at all. But, right now, I'm ... Crazy, the quarantine has ... Ah, gosh! Yeah, I don't know how to say this.
So I've lived my life, for several years, kind of ... I was doing the shelter-in-place prior to me even learning about shelter-in-place. I never even knew what it was!
Lauren: Yeah!
Sherry: But I lived for years, or I have lived for years like that. So this is kind of not anything new to me, as far as ... that goes. Because my world is very small. I don't go out very much because my fatigue is too much, and my eyesight is so bad that I'm kind of disoriented if I'm in places I am not familiar with, and large crowds bother me. I'm in the HSP category too. Large crowds bother me so I kind of avoid large crowds.
Lauren: And HSP, for anyone who's new to that term, stands for Highly Sensitive Person.
Sherry: Yeah. And so sensory overload happens pretty quickly. So what has changed for me ... And I also would spend days alone by myself, because my husband travels a lot for his job, and my kids are grown and off in their lives. And so now, I kind of have the opposite thing happening, that probably other people are happening, I'm having to deal with people being my ... I'm not used to having so much interaction with ... people. Or in my space.
Lauren: Yeah.
Sherry: I don't know, I'm loving it! It's weird. I've just ... I don't know, I just love it all. And I know that this is hard for many people right now, and that I feel very deeply. But at the same time, I'm seeing so much good, wonderful things. I have a really hard time focusing on the negatives and all of that, I really just ... It just doesn't even come into my world.
I only feel and see the good and the ... I just feel like I'm sitting here anchoring the light, the love and the light that I feel at all times, as I have been sitting in that all this time, knowing that everything's going to be fine and everyone's going to be fine. And I know it's hard for people, because they're suddenly being thrown into what I've gone through, and I understand how hard it is.
And so, my heart goes out to all those that are suddenly being thrust into what I deal with on a regular basis. Yeah, I don't know ... I'm such a deep thinker. Sometimes, I'm just ... Yeah, I don't know, I wish I could just sum it up in a little box for you, but I don't know how to do that.
Lauren: I know. I think that's the thing about all the good, it's hard to even put it all into words.
Sherry: It really is, yeah.
Lauren: It's also a felt experience in that-
Sherry: Yes!
Lauren: ... you have talked about experiencing the world very deeply.
Sherry: Yes!
Lauren: And also, how interesting this juxtaposition between your previous, quote-unquote, shelter-in-place lifestyle, which is not the same thing as what quarantine is, but now being actually asked to shelter-in-place for a very different reason, and having this additional social contact.
Sherry: Yes! It's very strange.
Lauren: And also, seeing how ... I know Melissa and I are both solo right now, in our living environments. Although, Melissa has a new kitten, which we can talk about soon. But how you're also seeing that it's different in that way because you're not experiencing as much solitude as you were used to.
Sherry: Yeah, isn't that strange? It's very strange. But I'm really enjoying ... I don't know, this is also something ... I don't even know if you're going to want to include this or not, but this is something-
Lauren: Probably will, probably will.
Sherry: Yeah, we'll see. This is something that is maybe a little ... I guess other people dealing with chronic illness are going to understand this more than the general ... of folks. But there's a little part of me that is like, "Ha! See! See, this isn't fun, is it? This is really hard, isn't it?"
I have this little, tiny bit of me that just is like ... I'm really not saying anything to anybody but I really want to just go, "Mm-hmm. Welcome to my world, people."
Lauren: Sherry, that's hilarious. And also your body language while you do that-
Sherry: I know!
Lauren: ... it's almost like somebody who's creeping up behind someone like ... uh-huh, very gently.
Sherry: I mean, I don't want to be insensitive. Because I know how hard it is, and I understand. But I also used to have some of those thoughts of, "Oh, if only you could understand what it's like to be in this place that I'm in, that I can't just pick up and go wherever I want, whenever I want. It doesn't work that way for me." And I also have this sense sometimes of ... I would be standing still and everybody around me is in fast motion, and I'm in the middle, going, "Everybody needs to slow down a little bit."
So I guess this did it for a lot of people, it forced a lot of people to slow down. And in slowing down, we get to meet ourselves. And sometimes it's hard, and I understand that, but it's also a healing and we grow. It's a lot of growth happening and it's exciting to me. I'm excited by it.
Lauren: Totally.
Melissa: I'm just having this sense of you, Sherry, like that ... I'm glad, Lauren, that you pointed out the hand gesture, because, "I hope somebody points out the hand gesture." I have this image, Sherry, of you sneaking up behind someone like that, like you're their shadow. And that's one thing that's coming up so much at ... I'm a therapist, so with therapy clients and with myself and everybody I know, right now, for the most part, is confronting our own shadows, and that there's something about ... I wish that was my shadow, like I can turn around and it's Sherry with her ... sneaking up, hands, being like, "See, it's hard, isn't it?"
Lauren: And, Melissa, you are somebody who ... You really know what Shadow Work is, and for people who have not really heard about or learned the term The Shadow in the sense that it relates to the psyche, how would you describe the shadow and what Shadow Work is?
Melissa: I used to think that shadow was something really bad, to be avoided at all cost, or to ... bring it on, and then you can slay it like a dragon, or something. So, I thought the shadow was the bad parts of ourselves, somehow. It's the part that we don't even know about, that's capable of terrible things that you'd never want to even think that you could be capable of. And then, I was reading something that was like, "A shadow is just the parts of us that we don't know, or the parts of us that we've disowned."
So, it's only bad because we decided, at some point, or somebody in our life, or some system, or some family member, or something, decided that this part of was unacceptable, either consciously or subconsciously, and communicated it, consciously or subconsciously. And so, it might be like ... It could be something like somebody is actually really good at baking. That could be their shadow ... if their family system didn't want them to bake, for some reason. And it's like, "Wait a minute, this may actually not be anything bad at all." So it's just the parts of us that got disowned, for whatever reason.
Lauren: Yeah. I know that another reason to disown a part is if we see it in someone else, like a caregiver from growing up or somebody in our environment, and we rejected it in them because we see the challenge that that quality brings, when that person enacts it, then we can also disown it in ourselves ... even if we embody it! Like, even if we're going around in the world and acting the way that we don't want to be acting. Sometimes we don't even realize it, or we're just pushing it away so that we're not conscious of it.
So really, I think about Shadow Work as like making the unconscious, conscious. Which is coming back to what you just mentioned about Sherry. The two of you are friends, and you see her as such a lovable person. And you see her little gesture of sneaking up behind as this really, almost, there's a lightness to it. And I love that you made that connection to say, "That is Shadow Work, too." Like, maybe your shadow is this lovable part of you that just wants your attention.
Melissa: Mm-hmm. And it's so much more helpful to see when it's imagined, like, someone like Sherry, who's a friend, just being like, "See, it's really hard!" And I guess she's you!
Lauren: Can you both share a little bit about your friendship and how it evolved?
Sherry: Yeah. We've continued our friendship from when we very first met on the Shine Your Light Mastermind, right? Was that what it was called? Shine Your Light?
Lauren: Yeah.
Melissa: Yeah.
Sherry: And we just felt a connection immediately. I know that you've said that before, as well, Melissa. I was just so grateful you were there.
Melissa: Mm-hmm.
Sherry: Because there seemed like there was an understanding that we had, like a deeper understanding that we had ... somehow just immediately, like we had known each other. Like old souls, or something, that knew each other. I don't know, but yeah.
Melissa: Yeah, I totally agree with that. And it's interesting, when I talk to people, now, about meeting up with people on Zoom, or phone calls, or FaceTime, or whatever, I'll say ... If somebody asks me if I have plans that day, I'll say like, "Oh yeah, I have a Zoom thing," or whatever. And I noticed that the last time that I got together with Sherry over FaceTime, somebody asked me what I was doing, and I said, "I'm hanging out with my friend."
Sherry: Yeah.
Melissa: "I'm hanging out with my friend Sherry." We've never met in person.
Sherry: No.
Melissa: Part of me doesn't know that.
Sherry: I know, right? I don't know! I just ... This doesn't seem to really matter a whole lot, for some reason.
Melissa: Yeah. And I think we also had this experience in the Shine Your Light Mastermind group when we would do writing. Sometimes I wouldn't be able to find words and then I would read something that Sherry wrote, and I'm, "Yeah! That! Yes, that!"
Sherry: Yep.
Melissa: And then there was a shared kinship over ... We both used the F word a lot during that period of time.
Sherry: We really like that word, don't we?
Melissa: Yeah. Especially in response to writing prompts that were like, "What does your heart want to say?" And it was like, "I'll tell you what my heart wants to say!" Sherry was like, "Totally, yeah."
Sherry: Exactly.
Melissa: Yeah, there was some of that too.
Sherry: And that both are losing or are dealing with the loss of a sense. One of our main senses. I thought the other day when I was on ... when we were on FaceTime together, and I was sitting outside, and the birds were going crazy for some reason and I thought, "Well, maybe it's because the air is so clean right now." I don't know, but they were going nuts. And I said to her, "Can you hear those birds?" She's like, "No! I can't hear, remember?" I'm like, "Oh, that's right."
And then she goes, "But if you turn the phone ... " I go, "Well, I can't see! I can only hear you.” She's like, "Well, if you point the phone at them, I can tell you what they look like." I'm like, "Okay." And then, you know what, that was a little lesson that I learned that day, though. Is because in my life, I get that constantly from people like, "Oh can you see that?" Or, "Did you see that?" And I always have this little part of me that goes, "How many times do I have to tell you I cannot see?"
And so, now, I'm feeling more compassion towards my family, who does that to me. Because I know perfectly well that you can't hear very well, and I'm still going, "Can you hear those birds?" So, anyway, it was a little lesson for me that day.
Melissa: Sherry, you just made the hand gesture again. I don't know if you saw that, Lauren. When you said, "There's a little part of me that goes, 'How many times do I have to tell you ... '" You made the hand gesture, like the little person sneaking up behind them being like ... It's like the wake up, like, "Wake up!"
Sherry: I know, I know.
Lauren: There is something really special for me, as an outsider, of seeing your friendship evolve. And one of the things I noticed about both of you, in the Mastermind, was how you're both incredible writers, and poets, and creators of beautiful reality, and that both of you balance that with the F word, and with, "To heck with this!" Like, "I don't want to. This is annoying! This is frustrating, to have to be going through this. It's heartbreaking." Being willing to say, "I'm angry," but also to say, "And I invite this in." It's such a cool thing, so it makes sense to me that you both are drawn to each other, because I see that happening. And it did happen in our group.
Melissa, you said questions like, "What is your heart saying?" And you're like, "I'll tell you what mood my heart isn't today."
Melissa: I like that as a t-shirt. Like, "Balance that with the F word. Balance the light with the F word."
Sherry: Yeah, right? Why not?
Melissa: Yeah, why not?
Lauren: So, I'm wondering if you have any questions for each other, although I know you chat a lot. But given the state of things and hearing each other's check-ins just now, if you have any questions for each other about how quarantine life is going or anything else.
Sherry: There's something that I did want to talk about. Because the last time we chatted, you had not had any human contact for 30 days. I mean, obviously, contact this direction but not any actual physical people around you. And I just thought, if I had to, I was going to get on an airplane and fly there.
Lauren: Oh!
Sherry: But I wondered how you're doing now, from since I had talked to you. And that that was a month ago now, actually.
Melissa: I know, and you said that to me. You'd texted it a few days after we talked and said ... Or maybe the same day, I can't remember, that, "Let me know if you have any human contact. If not, I'm getting on a plane." It's like, "That's not a good idea and also so touching."
Sherry: I so didn't care.
Melissa: Don't do that.
Sherry: Yeah, I know.
Melissa: Thank you for asking. I have had human contact.
Sherry: Oh good!
Melissa: Dating in the age of quarantine is very interesting and challenging. It was a prolonged period of ... I'm dating somebody I already knew before, a friend, was getting acquainted with the new situation and being extra cautious, and, "Let's wait the full 30 days and then see what happen." Yeah, we were just being cautious.
We did like 31 days. We started inching closer together at like 29 days. I mean, we got within three feet of each other at 29 days. And then, at 30 days, we sat right next to each other.
Sherry: That's awesome.
Melissa: Yeah.
Sherry: Yeah.
Melissa: And she adopted the sibling of my kitten.
Sherry: Oh!
Melissa: And they have playdates now.
Lauren: Can you tell us about your kittens?
Melissa: I would be delighted to tell you about my kitten. How much time do we have? She's a three and a half or four months old. She's a little gray ball of fluff, and she has a hyperactive purr machine. So if you get within a foot of her, her purr machine turns on. She needs to be on my lap during all my sessions with clients.
Lauren: Oh!
Melissa: Yeah. She's pretty sweet. And I think one of the things that this shelter-in-place thing is doing, is like ... I mean, that would be amazing anyway, but just the level of appreciation for contact with living beings is so high.
Lauren: Yeah, absolutely. It's so true. And when you sent your first picture to me about your little kitten, I was like, "That is the best thing that you could do right now, is adopt a precious little animal!"
Melissa: Well, you have a cat who adopted you, right?
Lauren: Me?
Melissa: Yeah. Don't you have a cat who stops by?
Lauren: Oh right! Yeah. In my backyard, there's a little black cat who ... First of all, he is really popular. He's like the best cat in the neighborhood. Of all the neighborhood cats, he's the one who's in charge. And I just think of him as a cool guy. Because sometimes he'll stop by for pets and sometimes he'll walk by, and he is not in the mood for pets because he's being a hunter. So he's like this little black panther. And sometimes I see him, and he's like prowling and walking across the tops of fences and stuff, and I'm like, "Wow, it's so cool that he's kind of my cat but not really. And he's out hunting. And isn't he just so cool? And I'm so lucky that he picks me sometimes."
So, he'll come visit, but then he'll be in kitten mode when he comes to visit for pets. And I'm allergic to cat, so I wind up having to wash my hands immediately afterwards. But it's been such ... It truly is the only physical contact I've had for the past eight and a half weeks, which is the strangest thing in the world! But it's been so lovely and special to have that connection, to have that little guy. And it's really the closest thing I could have to a cat, given my allergy.
Melissa: The cat who chose you in a way that works for you.
Lauren: Yeah, exactly. And works for him, because he still needs to be out and be a hunter. So, everybody wins.
Sherry: I love that. That's fantastic!
Lauren: Yeah.
Melissa: So my question for you, Sherry, is ... Now I can't remember the name of your cactus.
Sherry: Oh, Harold!
Melissa: Harold? That's great. How's Harold?
Sherry: He's doing great. He's out there. We figured out he's about 25 feet tall. And he's just my friend ... now. He's a big, huge saguaro cactus, and he just hangs out in my backyard with me. He's looking out, he's guarding over us ... is what I've decided Harold's doing. I don't know why I named Harold, but ...
Lauren: I love that. I love naming plants.
Sherry: I know, yeah! But he's doing great.
Melissa: Harold is just like this beacon of stability, and consistency, and protection and-
Sherry: Yeah.
Melissa: And he has flowers too, right?
Sherry: Yep. They do, they get flowers on them, and they're beautiful. They grow 10 feet ... Wait, they grow one foot ... My brain's not working all that great right now, but they would grow ... He's about 250 years old. So, like a 30 foot cactus is 300 years old. He's an old soul sitting back there, watching. He's pretty cool.
Sherry: I don't know. Who needs human contact, right? When you got ...
Lauren: When you can hug a cactus.
Sherry: Yeah.
Melissa: Lauren, you had the exercise on your Facebook page about the mythology ... Your symptom mythology?
Lauren: Yeah, I did. I have a little project. This will be a little clue I'll drop for people who are interested in my secret project. But I'm actually kind of glad you brought it up, because I'm trying to figure out a way to slowly reveal it. So this will be one little clue. If you're interested in my secret project, you can email me at lauren@thisisnotwhatiordered.com.
But one of the things I'm doing is creating a bunch of resources for self-care about living with chronic illness. And, Melissa, you've been a part of that. And I recently released a little video, as part of my project, about creating a symptom mythology, which means re-identifying with my symptoms or creating a new story about what it means when a symptom arises, and kind of picking a new mythology. Almost like there's a backstory so when a symptom arises, I get to have a new association with it.
And the particular story that I chose was a ... The first year of my MS, I had this sensation and it felt like somebody was resting a hand on me, like on my arm or my leg, and it was very unsettling and it felt lonely because there wasn't anybody touching me. But that there was a sense that ... I started to get nervous about having this symptom.
And so I was like, "No, I want to create a new association." So I decided that ... The association that I made was that I would have a guardian angel that was with me, and that there would be a sensation and I'd think of it as a connection to the divine. And so that was one example, but I imagine there's probably a reason you brought up that story because maybe there is something for you, Melissa, that resonated.
Melissa: A lot about that exercise resonated, but what I was thinking about was Sherry's Harold cactus. It's not a symptom mythology, but there's something about ... There's a mythology of Harold being a protector and watching over. And for some reason, that story of Harold and your story of the guardian angel, I guess that there was shared theme of protection with that. That's something that's coming up a lot for me, right now, is imagination, or whatever you want to call it, around protection. Imagining protection.
And I love the idea of imagining symptoms as protection, rather than protection from symptom.
Sherry: I love that!
Lauren: I can almost see Sherry's mind being blown right now.
Sherry: Yes!
Lauren: I could see you taking in that information.
Sherry: That's fantastic!
Lauren: I'm kind of taking it in, too. Yeah, because the way you just worded it, Melissa, was ... It's almost like we use our energy fighting a symptom. Maybe not everybody and not all the time, but sometimes ... for some people. At least I can relate to not wanting a symptom, right?
Sherry: I relate.
Lauren: I'm sure you can relate.
Sherry: Yeah.
Lauren: And what you just said makes me think, "Well, if I wasn't fighting ..." And I know I've talked about this before but this is a new way to think about it is, "If I wasn't fighting my symptoms, what could I use that energy for?" But also part of it is, "Well, here's one way to not fight my symptoms when they arise," is if I just decide that they have a benevolent quality to them or a protective essence, then there's a certain freedom that can come from that. And even a feeling of safety.
Sherry: That is huge. I don't know, but that is just huge to me right now. I don't know where to go with it because it's just really such a profound thing.
Lauren: What's it bringing up for you, Sherry?
Sherry: It's just, it is that exact process of wanting something to go away so bad, just so badly. But what if you reframe it and think, "Well, this is just my body taking care of itself in the way that it needs to take care of itself." It's protecting me from something that could potentially be more harmful than it is, because my body is protecting me.
Sometimes I don't express things in words really well, but like how do you think about that? When your head hurts, you have a migraine, or something, and it's creating other sensations in your body. And the pain is intense, and you can be thinking, "God, when is this going to go away? When is this going to go away?" All these thoughts of ... "Go away" thoughts where maybe ... And that's kind of what happened. I kind of had that happen to me in a point where I said, "Well, what if I decide that this is a friend, instead?"
And it is. It's just about kind of changing your frame of thought towards something. It's not easy to do when you're in pain. It's not easy to do, but it sure can flip everything around. And you're just thinking, "Well, hey, maybe this massive migraine is keeping me here, right now, so that something else doesn't happen." I don't know. Or that I don't do something that would be causing more problems or something, I don't know.
Lauren: Yeah. That makes so much sense, the way you just described it. And it's so personal too. I always like to acknowledge that, for you, Sherry, you didn't resonate with this because someone's telling you that you should do it.
Sherry: No.
Lauren: You just saying, "Oh, this feels true for some part of me that wants to interact in a new way ... with my symptoms."
Sherry: Exactly. That was a long time coming for me, too. I think it was just I had reached a point where you can't. There's nowhere else to go. But I love that thought of, "Oh, this sensation ... " I had things like that too, Lauren, those strange sensations in my limbs and ... And I had to think of it in a different way.
Lauren: It is amazing how much our imaginations can impact our reality.
Sherry: Yeah, it's true.
Melissa: Yeah, I was noticing ... I had been thinking back on our last interview, Lauren, during my flare up. Because you had interviewed me when I was not having a flare up. And then I had a flare up. And I remember in that interview saying things like, "The gift that came from the hearing loss," and all that. And then, during the flare up, I was like, "What the hell was I talking about? Why would anybody ever decide to do this? That's stupid!"
Lauren: That's so helpful to hear. That the same person who can feel the way that you did, can also feel both like it's a gift but then also, in other moments, feel like, "This is not a gift! This is not ... I would not choose this!"
Melissa: Yeah, like what the hell? And just being so disoriented during it, that it was like ... And even if I wanted to find the gift, it's not even ... I can't even tell what the hell's happening right now. There's no gift. But, at the same time, remembering having had a different perspective in the past, helped me to know you will have a different perspective in the future. Even though this is happening right now, when the symptoms die down, you'll have a different perspective, and there probably will be some sort of gift if you decide for there to be.
And then right after coming through that, that's when a saw ... Really shortly after that, I saw that exercise that you posted around the symptom mythology. And it was just like a perfect timing thing, where you're like, "Here's the gift, I posted it on Facebook." As all gifts come these days, by social media, right?
Sherry: I have a problem because I don't ... I miss all this stuff, I don't do social media and-
Melissa: Oh, I have to send it to you!
Sherry: And I miss these good things, like what you were just talking about. I need to ... I don't know, it'll happen when it happens, I guess.
Lauren: We'll find a way to connect you.
Sherry: Yeah. I can't force myself to ... I've tried, and I can't seem to connect with social media for some reason.
Lauren: Yeah, well, that makes sense. I think it's a very ... It's a different kind of culture.
Sherry: Yeah.
Lauren: Being on Facebook versus being in person, it's a different thing.
Sherry: Yeah, I think I'm more of a verbal ... You know?
Lauren: Yeah. And also in real time, there's something about connecting verbally in real time which is really nice.
Sherry: There is.
Melissa: Mm-hmm.
Lauren: And that's part of why I love this. This has been so much fun! And we don't have to end just yet, but I want to say it's so easy and fun sitting and talking with both of you. And I'm excited that you're sharing your friendship in public.
Sherry: It’s exciting.
Lauren: This is the question that I wanted to ask you both in the dream where we get to all meet in person. And yet, this is what's happening instead, just like my favorite Byron Katie quote, which is, "It wasn't as she had planned, it was perfect instead."
Sherry: Oh yeah!
Lauren: But what I would have done, if we were in person, is invite you to turn to each other, to look at each other, and share, "What I love about you is ... " And anyone can go first.
Sherry: I would say, "What do I love about you, Melissa?" I love how I can just be myself, like 100 percent. That doesn't happen to me very often, I'm a strange kind of personality, and so I usually am holding back in most of my friendships. I feel like with you, I don't have to hold back. And I can just be as goofy as I want to be and I can name the cactus if I want to, and you're like that's, "That's awesome!" I love that!
You just don't run into a lot of people that are okay with that, you know? And so I just love how I can connect with you on that level. We can be goofy or serious, and support each other's creativity. I don't know how much of a support I am for you, but you support my creativity for me.
Melissa: Yeah, absolutely!
Sherry: I'm grateful for you. I love that about you. How is that answer? It's good?
Melissa: Thank you. Thank you, Sherry.
Lauren: That was beautiful.
Sherry: Thank you.
Melissa: Sherry, what I love about you is your depth of soul, that's just like ... It goes down to the core of the Earth. And your ability to be both grounded and deep, and also expansive and light, at the same time. I think I experience you as such a spiritual being and such a human being, at the same time. I feel like you still ... That expansiveness and depth is there, and then also the ability to just banter and play, and be silly people.
Sherry: Thank you.
Lauren: I love that you also both kind of ... You impact that in each other, you kind of bring more out in each other. And I said this before when we were in our Mastermind and I'll say it again, as an invitation, that I would just love to read anything written by the two of you, or any collaboration. In fact, I think this episode is an example of a collaboration between you. That just who you are, individually, is beautiful, and who you are together is also really unique and special. So you're quite a team.
Sherry: Thank you, Lauren.
Melissa: Thank you, Lauren.
Lauren: And one thing that's kind of funny is that my phone is almost out of batteries, which is ... whatever it is. We'll call it a symptom of my phone. So, what that means is that I'll say we can put a bookmark in our conversation, I think there's so much more. And if you're interested, I'd love to do a Crowdcast event with the two of you, and invite listeners to join us live by being able to type to us. And no pressure, but if you're interested, I think people would really love to join in this conversation and hang out.
Sherry: That would be fun.
Melissa: I don't know what Crowdcast is, so ... Sign me up. No idea what we're doing.
Sherry: I've been doing that lately. It's like, "Okay, I'll just do it. Whatever, I don't know."
Lauren: It's like, "I don't know what that is, but yes, the answer is yes."
Sherry: Yeah, sure!
Lauren: [crosstalk] life approach.
Melissa: I like it.
Sherry: I love you, guys. So anytime I can spend time with you guys, I'm thrilled.
Lauren: Yeah. I feel that way about you, too. And Melissa joined me for a live event a few months ago. And so, Melissa, you've had the experience of doing it with just two of us, and this would just be three of us!
Melissa: Yes, I do actually. I do know what it is ... now that you say that.
Sherry: Oh is that the thing?
Lauren: Oh right.
Sherry: I think I was on that. Or I think I-
Lauren: Yeah, you joined us.
Sherry: I think I watched you guys. Oh, I love that! That was great.
Lauren: We just had a quarantine chat event a few weeks ago, and that was how broad it was. We just called it Quarantine Chat, and it was with Lily and Latasha. So this would just be that, really, I think. It's a good excuse to connect and to just have fun together.
Sherry: Perfect.
Melissa: Okay. Sounds good.
Lauren: Thank you for joining me for this episode! It was really fun hanging out with you.
Sherry: Thank you!
Melissa: Thanks for having us.
Sherry: Yeah, this is great. I loved it.