Episode 63: No One Else I'd Rather Be With

Lauren: I'll start from the beginning. I'll start from the beginning.

Erynn: Yeah.

Lauren: Maybe I won't start from the beginning. You guys are somewhere in a house, right?

Leo: We are somewhere in a house.

Lauren: And what's so awesome is that you have been open to helping me with the sound quality so that you can each have your own track recorded. Which means you're actually in separate rooms right now.

Leo: That's right.

Lauren: So thanks for doing that. And where's Hudson today?

Leo: He should be up on the main floor watching whatever on TV will last as long as this interview.

Lauren: That's great. I was thinking at the end if you want to invite him to say hello. He's welcome to be a part of the show too, because then-

Erynn: He would probably like that.

Lauren: … a little Instagram story that we did back when you guys had your episode as a couple. But I was thinking about how funny it is that we're meeting with you in separate rooms given that you've been in the same space for so long together.

Leo: Mm-hmm.

Lauren: And given that our last interview was all in the same room. And so now it's like, it's spread out. So I'm curious if you have any thoughts about that.

Leo: Well I would imagine that for you, Erynn, it's not actually all that different than my everyday, because of COVID-19 spending eight to 10 more hours a day doing exactly this.

Erynn: Yep. He's just kind of down there in his cave, and Hudson and I live up here in the main floor of the house. And that's just kind of how it goes. But we do get to see him at lunch more often than we used to, and when he's done at the end of the day, he just walks up the stairs instead of having to commute home. So that part is nice.

Lauren: That is nice. And how old is Hudson now by the way?

Erynn: He's almost seven. He'll be seven in just three weeks.

Lauren: Oh my goodness. Wow. And did I see or hear something on Facebook about preparation for his birthday that you're doing [crosstalk 00:02:03] quarantine?

Erynn: Yes. We have always said that we are not going to do a trampoline because knee health and whatever else. But he's an only child. And I just feel sad all the time when he's just like out in front of the house scootering back and forth in his little radius and that's all he gets to do. Wave at the neighbors. And so we're on the lookout for things that could be fun for an only child around here. So we are thinking about biting the bullet the getting a trampoline if we can find one, but that has been easier said than done because apparently we're not the only ones with that idea.

Erynn: And then yeah. We're just going to do like a water fun day or something that maybe he'll remember fondly since he won't get to be with his friends.

Lauren: Yeah. Well, I'm glad that maybe he might get a trampoline if that's what he really wants because it is. It's kind of a double edge thing having a trampoline. But it sounds like you're yeah, we're willing to stretch a little bit during this time. And I'm wondering, I know this is kind of a broad question, but we all know you from your other episode and then Leo from your other two episodes. I'm just wondering how have you been in COVID land?

Leo: Things have been okay for the most part. It's been, as a family, we've really been kind of in ... it's a weird state of almost like holding our breath and rushing at the same time because there's been this building wave of momentum with me getting ready to make the transition from working two jobs to just one job and putting a lot of our energy into that. And in the midst of plans for that, this COVID-19 thing launched. Just took everybody to a different place. Nobody was really expecting to be. And so not a lot has changed for us outside of the fact that my work hours have shifted from being out of the house to inside the house.

Leo: Which is nice. I do get to come up and see the family more. I do get to spend more time at mealtime. And the commute time has been reclaimed. So I have that to kind of put back into family time. But it still feels a bit ... it's kind of a weird space just because we're still in the middle of transition and we know transition is coming even more than what we've experienced so far. We're also a little bit ... I don't know if I should speak for everybody in the home, but I think there's a general sense of mild anxiety just because I am immunocompromised. Everybody kind of taken extra precautions because of me. And that has impacted even the way we've aligned our furniture. We had to put a table up in the kitchen where there wasn't one specifically as kind of a decontamination station.

Leo: Just to make sure we're not bringing anything in that might need to be sanitized or decontaminated in some way.

Lauren: Yeah.

Leo: So it's been weird. But it's been okay.

Lauren: So overall there have been a few different transitions and one for you is that you're already going through the process of moving from two jobs to just one job.

Leo: Yes.

Lauren: And so you're still doing that transition. It's just you're doing it in the midst of another transition. And both are kind of pretty big life impacting things.

Leo: Yeah. I think that's a fair summary. And the overall plan here always is stay as healthy as possible. Which is something we never get to forget. We never get to put that on the back burner. But, everybody's efforts have shifted more to doing that. And we have to have conversations that we as a family, we didn't have to have quite as firmly as we do now. For example, we didn't used to go out on the porch and constantly remind our son, you have to stay X number of feet away from your friends and things like that and to try to help a six year old, almost seven year old, understand what's going on, that's ... I think a lot of families are going through that but some to more or lesser degrees than what we are.

Lauren: Yeah. And the decontamination station the thoughts about your immune system, I mean, that's a lot. That's a lot to be managing.

Leo: It is. And I think Erynn takes the brunt of some of that, because she's the person who can with minimal risk compared to me, do all of the grocery getting and the mail retrieval. It's sort of the busy work that it takes to keep a family fed and keep things moving. So she's the one who kind of gets all the praise for setting up most of that and taking the imitative to make sure everything gets wiped down and put away. It's a lot of extra.

Erynn: I'm also fortunate that we were already homeschooling. So that was not a big transition that was difficult for us. And that I work from home as an editor and so that has not changed. So, I feel that we are very much in a privileged position that we haven't had to make a whole lot of change about how things run around here. But yeah. At the same time, there can be a lot of anxiety. And I'm not usually one that is prone to anxiety. But, I like to have my people in my house where I know that I am keeping them safe. And so even though for groceries, I only do contactless pick-up at Walmart and that is like pretty much the only time I leave the house.

Erynn: And then I bring everything in and wipe everything down and put it away. I have all the vegetables go in to be rinsed, and I don't buy anything that I'm not going to wash or cook, but there is definitely that heightened anxiety right around the time that I have had to go out and buy anything. Home feels safe. But every time I go out, there's just that kind of feeling of like did I make sure that I wiped everything down? Did I make sure that I didn't touch anything that I'm not remembering? Don't touch the face. And so until I can get home and get everything cleaned and get a shower and take off the clothes that I was wearing, there is still that sense.

Erynn: And then of course with the longer incubation period, you can't really fully relax for a few days where you're like, I was out in the pollen and my throat kind of tickles. And like oh no. Is it just pollen or is it something worse? And so yeah. There is definitely a heightened sense of anxiety any time that we can't be home in our safe little bubble.

Lauren: Yeah. This is a time where our vigilance is much higher than it normally is. And it's one of those things that I think can creep up on you if you're not paying attention and really bowl you over if you're not ... I mean, this is a time when, like you just said, it's this very basic human body protection zone that we're in which is like, don't want to get infected. And it could, like you said, the incubation period is this somewhere between just a couple days and 14 days and it's almost like a frequency. It's like a new frequency of, like you said, anxiety and vigilance.

Leo: Yeah. The other thing that's particularly challenging right now is the fact that there is an abundance of information about this one thing and not only do we have to be extra cautious and extra vigilant with our physical well-being, but our emotional well-being right now can take a beating without us really realizing it. Because our media consumption, no matter which way you're getting it from television, radio, social media, it's just everywhere. There's threat looming everywhere. And then being that I'm a counselor, I do this for a living, and pretty much my entire day is checking in with people who are struggling with the same things.

Leo: And so we all have to care for each other here which takes another layer of ... which is just something else to be really cautious of. Because if I come upstairs in a bad place, that's going to take the rest of the house to a bad place as well. Or if we go out and we've had some sort of scare with somebody coughing or something like that. Just extra things to be nervous about. So this is a unique time where everything is about being extra vigilant.

Lauren: Yeah. And the outside news resources, social media, people sharing their opinions, fear, all of it impacts us as individuals. And then the impact that we have on each other is greater in many circumstances because for a lot of people, you're living under the same roof and there's really nowhere else that you're going. So, I'm curious how you make that work, Leo, when you say, "I know that the mood I'm in when I come back to rejoin the family is going to have a big impact"?

Leo: I don't know that I'm doing the best job, but I am trying to be intentional with that. I come up for breaks as often as I can, so that I'm not just always in this one mental space. In the evenings especially when I'm done with work, I try to really be done with work more so than I ever had and be very intentional with doing something family oriented. Going for a walk. I bought an adult sized kick scooter so that I could go out and do some scootering with my son which makes me feel a little strange, but it's been good times. It's been fun.

Lauren: That's great.

Leo: Helping around with normal just chores around the house. Planting flowers. Dishes and cooking and things like that. Not only it kind of takes me out of the weird mental space that I can be in sometimes but also helps kind of equalize the rest of the home because I'm sharing the load and reentering into family life. Which I think has a spill over effect for all of us.

Lauren: Absolutely. How about for you, Erynn? How are you taking care of your emotional needs during this heightened time?

Erynn: I, again, feel fairly lucky to be pretty much an introvert. Like I can enjoy people but I don't crave that. I don't need that in the way that I know a lot of people are who are just like, "I feel trapped. I need to be with people." I'm happy to be with my people and my cats. To have Netflix. To have books to read and just to enjoy the quiet. I'm liking that we have really nice weather right now, so we can get outside and just kind of breath deeply occasionally. I think if we were really just inside that would be a little bit harder, but being able to get out just a little bit in our own little hatch has been good. And yeah, I think it's good not to put too much like these things have to get accomplished on yourself and give yourself the grace to be like, "Today is going to be a day where I just like watch a whole lot of Beat Bobby Flay or I just play a whole bunch of Words With Friends and connect that way."

Erynn: Whatever it is that I'm not putting too much on our shoulders. Like when homeschool days are hard, because that always happens, I can’t be like, "Hey, we have something for that, too. Let's just go outside and play a game. Let's do something else." And so that definitely helps. I think one of the things that I didn't realize ... well, I knew I didn’t like but I didn't realize how much I depended on, was like man, do I hate to cook. And this is a lot of nights to make food over and over and over again with no tonight we're just going to order pizza.

Erynn: Because with us, we're not even doing takeout. I know that some people are doing that right now, but with us being extra susceptible, we're just like, nope. If I can't cook it or wash it myself, we're not doing it. And so yeah. There have definitely been some times where it's just been like, that's the one thing I miss. That's the one thing that I really miss and so yeah. Having Leo be able to step in sometimes or be like sandwiches are cool, that's great. But yeah. I think just not putting too much stress on ourselves to say, "These things have to get accomplished." Especially with I'm doing my editing still and keeping up with that, but part of me was like, "You know, maybe this could be the time that I finish writing my next book or do something else that has been kind of set aside."

Erynn: But a lot of times when that opportunity becomes available, that I'm like, "Okay. I have some time." I'm like also good would be a nap. Also good would just be going outside, or yeah. So I don't have to just put too much pressure on us to be accomplishing all the things. It's okay to just ...

Lauren: Well, I think that that, you were saying grace, and that seems to be the antidote right now to the frequency of anxiety and of overwhelm. I really think that that is ... that's such an important part of how to proceed is understanding that there's only so much we're going to quote on quote, "accomplish", and just getting the sandwich onto the plate and into the mouth is a big deal during times like this. And it kind of ... I mean, it does remind me a lot of how much we as individuals and as families can shift our kind of hierarchy of needs or our priorities during difficult periods. So with health challenges, that's one of the times you've already had practice as a family with when the world turns upside down, how do we keep going forward? And it's a different state than when everything is fairly calm and things are going well. And I'm wondering if you're having any ... if you've made any connections between this time and other times that you've gone through the medical ups and downs as a family.

Leo: I think honestly this one is different. And I wish I could say different in a good way, but I don't think that's true. I don't think any of us have any contextual frame of reference for what we're dealing with right now. And everyone that ... everywhere you turn there's an expert and it's really challenging. And as human beings, we tend to gravitate towards the stable and predictability. And there's very much nothing about this that feels that way. So, even with my past health challenges, we were ... at least, I'll speak for myself, I could count on some things to be more stable and predictable than I feel like I can here. There are certainly still those things that I count on. I have my family. Thankfully, I have my work and we've been very blessed. We have a great circle of people who can support us.

Leo: But knowing that that support feels a little bit further than an arm's reach away sometimes is hard. This has forced at least me to confront some things that I maybe didn't really want to confront with my other health challenges. I spent the good portion of a week making sure that if I do get this thing and something happens to me, that everybody here is taken care of. Making sure all of my documents are accessible and up to date and all of those things. And I never fully did that to the degree that I have recently with even the other health challenges. There's something about this that has been far more unsettling. And maybe for no good reason. Maybe I'm really not ... it's not a necessary response. But I don't believe I need to second guess that too much. If I feel like it's necessary, then I'm going to go for it. You know?

Leo: Which is, again, gravitating towards those things that are predictable and comforting and comfortable. Knowing that there's a plan in place is that for me. So, where we haven't necessarily been able to make those connections, I think we're trying to. It's been hard, honestly, to make connections between this and other health stuff also because being chronically ill, I still have monthly doctors appointments and other things that occur on a regular basis. And yet these things are also shifting. I've had, I don't know how many virtual visits at this point. I did an intake with an allergist via video here. What are you actually ... what are you doing for me via video as an allergist, really? Because mostly that's a hands-on thing. But we're all making adjustments, and we're just figuring out new ways to do things.

Leo: But even what used to feel very routine for me, after I had gotten used to my healthcare routines, those are no longer routine at least in the way that they were. They're becoming routine. But we've had to make shifts and trying to just remember it's okay. It doesn't have to stay the way it was. And you just kind of, for me anyway, I'm hanging onto those things that aren't shifting.

Lauren: When you said the thing about if I'm not sure if this is a necessary response, and I really related to that when you said it. Because it's like I think all of us are wondering, "Are we doing this right?" Right? Like you said, it's unprecedented. Am I doing this right? Am I grieving right? Am I anxieting right? Am I preparing right? And it isn't in many ways like a health challenge previously.

Leo: Right. And we don't have any kind of guidance. When you go to the doctor and you get a diagnosis, now, this, I guess, is not true for everybody and I do understand that. Deeply understand the anxiety that comes with not having a diagnosis but symptoms. But this is a little different in that we're given a little information but not necessarily enough to really know if what we're dealing with is that. For example, when we start talking about symptoms of COVID-19, you've got this group of people over here who said they experienced this, and these people over here who experienced that. And then you've got the people all along the spectrum who had variations of that. And then it seems as though as soon as we figure out one set of symptoms that can be relatively predictable, they're rolling out this other thing that's possibly related. And we don't typically experience some of that in the chronic health journey for most people.

Leo: At least once you get an initial diagnosis, there's a predictable course for most people. This is just not like that. So, there is a lot of question. I don't know that there is a right way to do it. I think we can begin to figure out if what we're doing isn't necessarily the right way. But we often don't know that ahead of time.

Lauren: Yeah. That's true. And I think for me the theme of all of the unknown and then the misdirection or the new information and the ... In many ways, for me with my MS, it feels familiar in the sense that none of my doctors can tell me what to expect with my MS. And sometimes I'll read a story or talk to somebody else with the condition and learn something completely new that I didn't even have on my radar, and it just keeps coming back to how much I'm not in control. And I'm not in charge of most of what's happening with my body and otherwise. And it's just so ... It keeps bringing me back to this feeling of what do I have control over? What can I do?

Erynn: Yeah. I know that's been true for me, maybe more with this. I mean, I certainly didn't feel like I had any control of Leo's initial diagnosis or what was going on with him. But I feel almost like this sense of responsibility on my shoulders since I'm the one that goes out. And I have to make sure that I don't bring anything in. And I need to protect and I need to control. And so yeah. Setting up that like hot spot zone in our house and making sure that nothing comes in that we haven't decontaminated has been big. But I do sense that part of me that is just like what can I control? Don't let anything come in. We had a necessary home repairs that just came up, and for like three weeks, I had made sure that my house was like completely closed off from the world, and then this man just has to walk in and be like, "Let me look at this, and this, and this", and I was just like, "Ah."

Erynn: Like I just wanted to chase him around with Lysol and spray him down before he came in and it was like my sanctuary. And so yeah. Definitely that sense of like I need to control what comes through my doors and what we do is big. And I think that's similar that feeling of I can't, but the need to I think is bigger for me now.

Lauren: Yeah. You're in the position of having ... I think sometimes when we do have some responsibility type control, it adds to the frequency of stress. And feeling that weight of okay, I'm protecting my family. And it's a different way than ever before, for most people. I know some people need to be incredibly vigilant about germs and contamination as it is. But for most of us, I think it's we just haven't had to think about the stuff that we can't see. Like these invisible germs at such an intense level before. And I love the image of you imagining running around with the Lysol, and chasing someone around. Because I feel like that could be a cartoon that represents so much of what we're going through right now.

Leo: Yeah. There's one other thing that I am grappling with personally and with my clients that seems to be particularly true as a result of what we're dealing with now is from a trauma perspective, we tend to see that people are triggered in one or more of three major areas: safety, responsibility and control. And all three of these are getting triggered for so many people in the circumstance. And so it is a present unfolding trauma for so, so many of us. And unfortunately, a lot of times we don't notice the trauma has happened or has had an impact on us until after the fact. But this is a global phenomenon that we are all being traumatized by on some level. And I don't know that for many people, those tools have been in place to recognize or deal with that and even those of us who do have the training, some of us who have that training are not as adept at shining the light back this direction on ourselves. So we've become vulnerable.

Leo: And of course no one wants to be vulnerable. That's a really uncomfortable place to be. So, all of that is playing out in the midst of just continuing the every day the best that you can.

Lauren: Yeah. And I don't know if you relate to this, but in the midst of all of it, I just feel tired.

Leo: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lauren: It's so much.

Leo: Yeah. I really would love a nap.

Lauren: Yeah. Like one of the naps where you wake up from it and realize this is all a dream?

Leo: Right. That would be nice.

Lauren: I could go for one of those. Yeah. I mean even doing this podcast right now, part of me has this second guessing like maybe I should just be not making episodes because we're in the thick of it. And I tend to interview people pretty far after their initial diagnosis. And there's a reason for that, actually, and mainly it's because I don't think people should have to be burdened by any kind of responsibility of making meaning so early in the process. Not that it's a burden necessarily, but I feel like I want to give people a little time to integrate and get practice and not require this like deep conversation about an illness. So most of the conversations on this podcast are after a year plus. But what we're doing right now is we're interviewing.

Lauren: I feel like I'm a weather reporter going out into the storm, interviewing people in the storm and it's wild.

Leo: Yeah. We are making meaning, even now. And I think that's kind of the important piece to really ... for people to feel like they have some control over it. You get to make meaning. We get to make meaning about how this is playing out for us to some extent. And once that meaning has been made, we can also revise it. Because other things are going to come along that shift the way we focus on certain events. This crisis that was this big and really seemed all-consuming suddenly seems very minuscule once something bigger comes along. So we get to have some say even in the midst of what we don't know, which I think can be really empowering.

Lauren: Erynn, you looked like you were touched by something a little bit.

Erynn: Ah. Yeah. I was just thinking about the trauma response. I was talking with some friends online which that has been a big thing for me. Even as an introvert, just having those connections and knowing that we are all in this together of the way. Like the just different ways that people are handling things. And I do tend to be like just kind of we do this and then we do this. Just kind of just the next thing. But yeah. For me, I think one of the hardest things has been being separated from my parents. They're two hours away from us. And they're both definitely in the high risk category as older people who have preexisting conditions. And so yeah. I tend to just keep my happy face on all during the day and everything. And then wait until my boys go to sleep and then have a good cry in the shower. And I was just thinking about like all the different ...

Erynn: I know people. There are some people who are dealing with it not well and I don't know. I think everybody's way of dealing with it is everybody's way of dealing with it. But I was just thinking about that reacting to trauma thing and how it's okay to just let yourself deal with the emotions the way that you need to.

Lauren: Yes.

Erynn: Anyway just thinking through that stuff.

Lauren: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think it's so deep what's being triggered for us. It probably isn't within the realm of anything we thought we'd have to deal with because all of a sudden we can't visit these precious people in our lives. That's a big deal. That's part of your support system, too.

Leo: Yeah. Here in South Carolina, the epicenter of where it started is our hometown, which is wild in and of itself. Because Camden is known for things, but not things like that. It's an equestrian town. We're not going to ever think about Camden the same way I think after this. Because why of all places where it could have radiated from in the state, why would it be there? But that's where all of our family is located. And it has impacted our ability to do the simplest things like drive down for a visit and spend time. My great-grandmother passed recently, and I actually got a phone call from family saying, "Don't come." Because it's just not safe.

Leo: And we're certainly not the only family who is dealing with that. Many people have had losses where there's been you can't even grieve and send your loved ones off in the way that you normally would. But it's not only those kind of things too. I mean, graduations are being disrupted and the ways that we celebrate, whatever that celebration might be. Even if it's just the Sunday dinner. Even that has been challenged with all of this. And we're having to find ways to process something we don't have a context for.

Lauren: That's a really great way of putting it that it's a new kind of grieving that is so unusual and it certainly does put in perspective for me how much I value the things that I don't have access to right now. And the people. Not just things. But the experience of being with people. And ...

Leo: Yes.

Lauren: Yeah. And I think probably a lot of people who are listening to this right now are all over the spectrum of somewhere in this moment from being really deeply feeling it to feeling a little bit numbed out about it which is like me in the course of a day. You know? I have some periods during a day when I'm really leaning into the gravity of it. And some periods where I'm like, "I need to do a puzzle and listen to a funny thing and listen to a funny podcast." And just zone out for a while.

Leo: Yeah.

Lauren: So I wonder as you kind of reflect as a family, if there are any questions you have for each other.

Leo: I don't know. Let me think honestly.

Erynn: Cat's trying to get out.

Lauren: You can get him if you want to.

Erynn: …  because she was over here like rubbing her face against the computer screen and other stuff a minute ago. Hold on…

Lauren: Now you guys have three cats, right?

Leo: We do. Yeah. One of our cats crossed the rainbow bridge and it was so, so sad. And we got the second cat to kind of help be a partner to the cat that was still here. But my hope was that this cat would also love me and love me deeply, and that just didn't happen. She's a sweet cat and she does have affection for me, but she is absolutely my wife's cat. She's Erynn's cat through and through.

Lauren: Oh yes. You can never plan these things, right?

Leo: No.

Lauren: It's like who is going to be buddies with who.

Leo: They love who they love. And when we went and got Spencer and we planned it to the best of our ability so that he would really bond with me and bond strongly, and he bonded with my son. So there you go.

Erynn: Leo made a rule. He was like, "You cannot snuggle this cat when I'm not home." He has to wait for me for affection the first few weeks. I really tried. But after a week or so.

Lauren: So funny.

Erynn: He is kind of a bit of a cuddlebug. But yeah. He loves Hudson the most. I don't know what happened there.

Lauren: That's really cute. So, yeah. So I'll ask this again, because that cat conversation was so cute. I can't imagine not keeping it an episode. Do you have any questions for each other or reflections for each other about this time?

Leo: I don't think we've been very intentional with asking those questions because ... or checking in about those questions. So we can certainly do that, but ...

Lauren: You can just do it in front of the whole world.

Leo: That's right. Why not? Why not? It has been so much. The transition came fast and came hard. I mean, it was you'd go to the office and you worked there all day, and then you go to the other office and you work there and then you come home. And that was the routine. Then this happened and we transitioned pretty much immediately to, okay, I'm going to be home now and I'm just going to be downstairs and this is what the day is going to look like now. And business as usual. No big discussion about things.

Lauren: Just moving forward.

Leo: Moving forward. So, yeah. I don't know. Are there things, Erynn that do you feel like we really need to ... questions we need to answer or ask that we haven't really taken the time to consider in the midst of just keeping things moving?

Erynn: I really can't think of anything.

Leo: I do think that like everybody, every other family, we have room to improve on our communication. But we have over the last few years, become really adept at fitting in a lot of communication in small amounts of time. It's cramming it in the spaces where it will fit simply because that's been the schedule.

Lauren: Yeah. Well, you know, one that I love to do when I'm in my relationship and when I work with couples is to start out with is there something in the past week that your partner did that really touched you?

Leo: Erynn, I'll let you go first.

Erynn: Right? No.

Lauren: You know what the hardest part about that question is? Isn't whether or not you were touched. It's the recall.

Erynn: Right.

Lauren: It's like the jogging your memory of what happened over the past week. What is a week anyways?

Erynn: Right.

Lauren: You know?

Leo: Yeah.

Erynn: I think for me it's the little things for sure of seeing how intentional he is being with being engaged. So, it's a combination of being home more than not and it's a combination of like the change in the weather and there still being light outside, too, that just allows him to like when he comes up at the end of the day, he can go right outside and play and do something with Hudson. They can plant their little garden seeds and they can go on their scooter rides. And so I'm always touched seeing him being intentionally an engaged parent. And so I always like to see those moments where the two of them are taking time to do something special. And when I can hear them laughing together, that's always something that touches me.

Lauren: Well, that makes sense that it touches you based on what I know of you. And it must just fill your heart to see in the swirl of all of this, that there is such love that's still growing, that's still engaging. That's a really beautiful thing to identify. Thank you. I'm saying thank you. It's not me you're thanking.

Leo: Yeah.

Lauren: But that's awesome. Thank you for sharing it.

Leo: That's good to hear. I am always grateful for the ways that our lives are able to continue moving forward just because you don't let things slip through the cracks. And that is just the multitude of little things. Some bigger than that. My favorite way that you are kind of the backbone of the family is something that you actually referenced earlier which is cooking meals. Because I know you don't love it. But after working so many hours, I absolutely just don't have it in me many days to come in and put together a family sized meal.

Leo: Some days, if it were up to me, I would probably eat garbage food all the time. At least as long as I'm working this schedule. But I appreciate that. And that you put yourself in the position of being the one who goes and gets ... you're the sort of world facing side of our family when it comes to being the protective barrier from all of this stuff. That would be really hard for me if I were in this by myself, to know that I had to consistently put myself in harm's way just to function. And that stuff happens every day.

Lauren: That's beautiful. Yeah. Those things that are ... but for both of you things that you're doing that so impact the whole family. And make a much bigger difference than it may feel in the moment. So, I love that. Thank you for being willing to share that.

Leo: Yeah.

Lauren: All right. I have a new invention which is, as a therapist, it's like a psychological invention which is we can't hang out with our friends right now. We can't hang out with our family like most people in our lives. We just can't see them. So, the invention is, what if we spent time remembering together a time before COVID that was really special that we spent together? And I wonder if there is one that either of you or both of you could share your own could describe as a really special, fun or lovely experience that you have. Some special memory. It could be a place that you would go together or an activity or a vacation.

Leo: I just wanted to clarify, and I think that it's probably pretty open-ended for you, but something with our families that we can't see or just our immediate group here?

Lauren: It's really more just Leo and Erynn, for you to reminiscent together as a way to spend time. Although, I originally came up with it because I literally don't have anyone in my house right now. And so every conversation is with someone that I can't see. So, it's about hey, remember that time when we did X, Y and Z? And it starts to bring me back into the memory and the feeling of being in that place at that time with that person, and it kind of reinvigorates those emotions in me which is really rejuvenating for me.

Leo: Yeah.

Erynn: I have actually been doing that a lot anyway.

Lauren: Oh. That's great. Well, by the way, I joke that it's an invention because… I think we know about this, right? But the invention is that, hey, there are ways for me to spend time with people and experience the something other than COVID. We chat.

Erynn: Yeah. I was actually chatting with my extended family about we're trying to do Zoom calls which is really fun with my parents who are not tech-savvy at all. I can't hear anybody. What's going on? I don't know how to turn my speaker on. But yeah. We were sharing like we should just get together and everybody share a favorite memory, and then we can all ... and so that has been a fun thing to just think through. And then my dad just signed up for Facebook. He is in his 70s. And so-

Lauren: That's awesome.

Erynn: ... he doesn't know how to take pictures or add pictures or anything. So it was just like a silhouette profile picture and like nothing. And so I went back and tagged him in every photo. I had him in seven… however long I've been on Facebook. And so I got to kind of relive all of those things which was really fun. But definitely for just Leo and me, I will always go back to our 10th anniversary which was just ... that was one year post-kidney transplant, yeah. And so our honeymoon was fun, but it was like a ... we wanted to choose a place that we can drive to within a couple of hours of where we're getting married.

Erynn: And so it was not like a really cool location or anything. It was just about kind of connecting and being together. But this 10 year thing, we went to Punta Cana in the Dominican Republic and stayed an all-inclusive resort and one of my favorite things was that I didn't have to cook at all. You could eat whenever and whatever you wanted.

Lauren: That's great.

Erynn: But yeah. I think that time for us was like really the first time post-transplant, it was just the two of us. And there's literally never a time in my life when I don't have our son right there with me. And so as much as I love him and value that I get to be home with him and spend all that time with him, just the two of us connecting again and being like, so who are you? Now that the crisis is over, and now that we can talk just the two of us without interruption was really great. And so I always love to remember that time.

Lauren: That's such a powerful question of who are you now that we've been through the hard part.

Erynn: Yeah.

Lauren: Or one of the hard parts.

Leo: That was a good time. I was actually thinking the other day about one of our last really great uninterrupted date nights when we went out to Flat Rock. That one was not the one that we most recently went to, but the one where we had that beautiful storm coming in on the horizon and we were trying to beat the rain back down the mountain. As I've been gearing up to make this transition into not working crazy hours all the time, that's one of the things that I keep replaying in my mind as I can't wait to get back to a time where we can just hire a babysitter and go up the mountain and spend time in our little retreat. You know?

Leo: Flat Rock is just such a magical place and I loved being able to go up there and get these fancy little desserts and walk around and eat some of the best food and have the day end with just the most beautiful, perfect storm.

Lauren: That is lovely. Yeah. It's also like a vision for what's next. There are things that we long for that it's like ... I think that's one of the big questions people are asking each other right now is, what's the first thing you're going to do when things are back to normal? And it's tricky, I think, for those of us with health challenges, because if we have an immune system that's compromised, then we're probably not going to be able to go out as soon as everybody else. And so then it's like, well, which tier of, or which layer of going out is it? Is it the kind where you can ... are we going to be at a restaurant together? How long will that take? But I have a memory of the two of you that I will share which is when we all hung out the day, a couple years ago that we did this interview. The couple's interview. You guys were the first couple on the podcast to come and be brave and share your hearts with all of us and it was such a lovely experience. And I remember my mom came with me, and your son, Hudson, was there. And so he must have been five at the time, I think. And he's just the most wise, funny, young person. And I so enjoyed hanging out with all of you and we all just ... we went to this restaurant and had lunch. And we had fruit nachos.

Erynn: I remember that.

Lauren: Which I never had before. It was basically like corn chips with diced fruit on top. And I think there was cheese sauce and salsa.

Erynn: There was. There was ... Mm-hmm. 

Lauren: Right? It was surprisingly good. And I just remember all sitting together and feeling like, "This feels like a family meal. Like we've been doing this for a long time." But it was the first time we had all sat down together and it was right before the interview and I just remember that was so much fun. And being in your house. And at one point, Hudson said to me, I was like super tired and exhausted from the travel and everything and he said, "You know? I know that you might want to just rest right now, but if you want to go play games with me, that would be likable." And I just remember being like, "Man, I've never wished I wasn't tired more than right now", because he's just such ... he's a ray of light.

Leo: That's him.

Lauren: Yeah. He's a good one. And actually, it was really fun. And before we wrap up, I just want to ask if you have any last things that you would want to share in this conversation together.

Leo: I am very grateful that I am in this situation with the people I'm in it with. I don't want to be in it, but there's nobody else that I think I would want to be in it with, and that's, I think not something that everybody can say. I want that for everybody, but I'm really glad that I have it.

Lauren: Yeah. You're really glad that you're with Erynn and Hudson.

Leo: Yes. Also I'm really glad that this is happening in 2020 and not 1950. Because my goodness, how much more stressful, how much more challenging would this be without technology and some of the other advances that we have now?

Lauren: Yes. I think about that all the time too. So grateful for that. Now that we've chatted about Hudson, we're going to invite him to join us for the conversation. Hey Hudson!

Hudson: Hey.

Lauren: How are you doing?

Hudson: Good.

Lauren: I heard it's your birthday pretty soon.

Hudson: It is.

Lauren: How old are you going to be?

Hudson: Seven.

Lauren: Yes! I don't know if you remember this, but I got to meet you a few years ago and you showed me your drawings.

Hudson: Oh yeah. I remember like the whole thing, seeing you.

Lauren: You do? Oh, that's so cool. And you probably remember this, but I remember I was so excited to learn about your dream of creating a scary, haunted house.

Hudson: I don't know if I remember that, but I do want to make a scary restaurant.

Lauren: Really?

Erynn: It has transformed into a haunted house themed restaurant.

Lauren: That's such a good idea. I love it. Would it be open all year round or just for Halloween?

Hudson: Well, I got other things to do for ... like I have different holidays for it. So it's probably just going to be on Halloween and stuff.

Lauren: That sounds good. And now am I right that you got to visit a scary house or a haunted house at some point this year?

Hudson: No.

Erynn: Wait. Remember when we went at the costume store and they had the little haunted house part?

Hudson: Oh yeah.

Lauren: So you finally got to go in one?

Hudson: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erynn: What did you think?

Hudson: It was pretty fun.

Lauren: Yeah? That's awesome.

Hudson: The first time my dad had to show me like the whole thing because I was scared.

Lauren: Right. Even though you're really good at making the scary haunted houses and designing them, you're also scared when you go inside of them. Right? It doesn't matter how good you are at it. That's the whole point is that it scares you when you get to go inside.

Hudson: Well, in my scary haunted house, I'm going to be the one building it. So ...

Erynn: So you won't be scared then?

Hudson: Yeah.

Lauren: You'll know what to expect when you're in there, right? Are you going to hire actors that are going to be like a ghost and things?

Hudson: Yeah.

Lauren: Or is it just going to be robots or just decorations?

Hudson: We're not going to do that. I'm going to hire maybe like four people.

Lauren: Okay. That sounds like a-

Hudson: For the scary part. I'm going to hire ... I don't even know how many …

Lauren: Yeah. That sounds like a good size. You're going to probably start with a smaller team. Over time, as your restaurant grows, you may want to get even more people that you invite to help out.

Hudson: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lauren: And see how it goes. So, how has it been for you? You know about this pandemic. I don't know what you guys call it at your house.

Erynn: The coronavirus she's talking about.

Lauren: Yeah. How's it going? How are you-

Erynn: What do you think about it?

Lauren: Yeah. What do you think about all of it?

Hudson: Well, I think lots of stuff bad has happened.

Lauren: Yeah.

Hudson: That's what I think.

Lauren: Yeah. And it all over the world and also it affects everybody. And I know one of the things that your parents told me is that you have to stay far away from your friends.

Hudson: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Erynn: You missed the last few weeks of co-op. So they didn't get to see friends that way. But we did Zoom. See them a little bit on the computer.

Lauren: That's great. Yeah. Who do you talk to on the computer?

Hudson: Well, so far just you.

Lauren: Just me.

Hudson: On the computer.

Lauren: That's cool.

Erynn: We talked to grammy and your aunts the other night, right?

Hudson: Oh yeah.

Erynn: Yeah. And your friends at-

Lauren: Nice.

Erynn: ... school one time.

Hudson: Wait …

Erynn: You don't remember doing co-op on the computer with everybody?

Hudson: Oh yeah, yeah.

Erynn: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lauren: So what are you doing for fun to have fun with your family while all of this is happening? You guys watch movies or do you play?

Hudson: Pretty much normal stuff. Just I have to stay more far away.

Lauren: Yeah. So you guys have some good practice having fun together.

Hudson: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lauren: You're a fun family.

Hudson: Recently, I just started throwing sharp sticks at some wood for target practice. So ...

Lauren: Oh, that's a good way to pass the time.

Erynn: Yeah.

Lauren: Are you getting-

Erynn: Harpooning from the yard.

Hudson: Yep.

Lauren: Are you getting good at it?

Hudson: Yeah.

Lauren: That's awesome.

Hudson: What is so funny to you, dad?

Leo: You are so funny to me. You are. What's your favorite part of everybody being at home right now?

Hudson: That we get to sleep in the guest room with mom.

Leo: So yeah. I bet so. Anything else that you enjoy?

Hudson: I enjoy staying outside.

Leo: Yeah. And you get to play a lot out more. Outside more.

Erynn: We've had really nice weather here recently.

Hudson: I'm pretty much outside for like the whole day. Like I pretty much just come in for meals, and then go back out.

Lauren: You're busy out there.

Hudson: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lauren: Do you guys have any funny stories from this pandemic? Spending all this time together?

Leo: I can't think of any funny stories, but we have been pretty good about sharing things that make us laugh. We watch funny videos together a lot.

Lauren: Nice.

Leo: So we've tried to put a lot of laughter.

Hudson: Recently we've been trying those funny mashup stuff.

Leo: Yeah.

Hudson: I forget what it's called. It's really hard to …

Leo: No. You're right. I was just remembering and it made me laugh.

Erynn: They're funny.

Lauren: So what's your favorite funny video that you've watched, Hudson?

Hudson: It's hard to explain.

Erynn: You like the one with the cat on the hood of the car, don't you?

Hudson: Yeah. 

Lauren: What happens in that one?

Erynn: Can you tell her about it?

Hudson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). There's a cat on the foot of the car and the person was honking the horn and they just keep redoing it. And then it goes (singing).

Lauren: Yeah. I know exactly what song you're talking about. That's so funny.

Erynn: And the cat says, "Bounce, bounce, bounce."

Hudson: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Lauren: Okay. You have to send me a link to this video. Maybe we'll put it in the show notes for the episode so people can watch it. 

Hudson: On one of the funny mashups, the funniest one to that one was when a girl was on fire and they sang that song. But I know it very well. I just know that one …

Leo: I feel like that deserves a little bit of context. We don't watch people on fire. That's not what we do. It was a video of fails that had been set to music, and so it was things that people were trying to do that did not work out as they intended and then they set music to it.

Lauren: Okay. Hopefully everybody is okay.

Leo: Everybody was fine.

Lauren: Okay.

Leo: I promise we're good parents. I promise.

Erynn: It didn't even burn her hair off. Yeah. I think she shot a firework too close to her and so there was like one snapshot where it looked like she was surrounded by fire and they put that Alicia Keys song to it. But right after the song, you could tell that she was fine. Just a little scared, I'm sure.

Lauren: Oh, good. Good. Good. I feel like we're all getting good at looking up and finding great content online with in terms of just finding laughter and levity and just enjoying the lighter moments. It's a nice relief.

Leo: Yes. And we do spend a good bit of time with that.

Hudson: But it still looks like she was on fire.

Erynn: It did look like that. Leo and I are definitely that couple who will be in the same house and just send each other funny videos and memes from the other room on the couch. So what are you laughing at over there, just watch your e-mail. I'll send it to you.

Lauren: And Hudson, you have a new cat since the last time I saw you.

Hudson: Yeah. His name is Spencer.

Lauren: And what's his personality like?

Hudson: Well, he barely ever comes to my parents. He only comes to me. So that's a personality.

Lauren: It sounds like he has a favorite.

Leo: He loves me best.

Hudson: He loves me so much, it's kind of like you never even bought him for you.

Lauren: It sounds like he's buddied up with you.

Hudson: We have the best cuddles ever.

Lauren: Aww. I love cats for that very reason.

Hudson: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Another reason is his licks are very rare and they're kind of dry. And so when he gives them to you, it's very special. And he gives them to me most of the time, so it's especially special.

Lauren: Aww. That's really cute. It's like a special gift because he doesn't just do it all the time.

Erynn: It's true. We have one cat that's very lucky and kissy.

Lauren: Yeah. So it's like-

Erynn: It's not quite as special from her. Sometimes it's like ouch, though. Your tongue is scratchy.

Lauren: Well, Hudson, is it okay if we use our conversation today for my podcast?

Hudson: What?

Erynn: Do you know what a podcast is?

Hudson: No.

Lauren: Your parents ... it's kind of like a radio show. Have you ever listened to a radio show where somebody is being interviewed?

Hudson: I've listened to the radio.

Lauren: Yeah. So basically it's like the radio, but instead of just hearing it once on the radio, you could hear it again and again online. But it's just the sound, and there's no video. So what I just did was interviewed your parents, and then at the end, you got to join. So is it okay if we use this for my episode?

Hudson: Sure.

Lauren: Thanks. And I can't wait for you to hear it, because I think you're going to enjoy hearing yourself be a part of it.

Hudson: I probably will.

Lauren: It'll be kind of fun. Yeah. So thanks for being willing to chat.

Hudson: You're welcome.

Lauren: I hope I get to see you guys again.

Leo: I hope so too. And I hope you're taking good care of yourself over there.

Lauren: Well, thank you all. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day.

Leo: You too. Thank you so much.

Erynn: Thanks. You too!