Episode 55: Sitting With The Unknown

Guest: Michelle Horton

Lauren: Thank you for joining me today. Michelle.

Michelle: Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward to it.

Lauren: Me too. And so I want to say officially thank you for being so supportive of the podcast. You are one of the people that was in the room with me when I first came up with the idea like I was like, Oh my gosh, I want to do a chronic illness podcast and you were so supportive and I just really appreciate it.

Michelle: Well I, it's a, it feels like a little bit of a full circle moment getting to be here and be with you and this, but having seen um, what you've put together and just how I and others have benefited and yeah, just knowing from the moment that you have the idea with my own personal health challenges of like, yes, this is definitely something that I want and resonates so deeply with me. But it's very clear that it's been so important for so many people.

Lauren: Yeah. Well and thanks for being willing to be on it too. Cause it's one thing to listen and it's another thing to share your story. It's vulnerable. So glad you're here.

Michelle: Yeah. It felt, um, it's, it's kind of funny. I feel like the timing feels right. I've just being in a place that, yeah, I feel ready to just share a little bit more in my, of my story, I think more broadly than I have in the past.

Lauren: And we'll cool. This is a big day. Yeah. So what is your, kind of an overview of what your health journey has been?

Michelle: Yes, yes. The cliff notes version. So essentially kind of like, I guess the long story short is when I was 23 I went in for a routine physical, got the typical blood work done and the results came back and my platelet count was really high. So like to give an idea, a normal person's platelets are usually between like a hundred and 400,000. Mine were at like 1.3 million. Yeah. Yeah. So like they'll just a little high, like really high

Lauren: Your like a platelet millionaire.

Michelle: Right. And so that kind of kicked off a series of, of tests and trying to figure out what was going on. Because at first they even thought it was a fluke. They're like, let's get your blood retested and see if that's real. And it was indeed a real number. Um, and so found myself, um, at 23 in a hematologist oncologist office trying to figure out like what was going on. And so there was a series of tests and eventually they came to the conclusion based on the results are almost really the lack of the results that I had a blood disorder called essential thrombocytosis, um, which is essentially it's a Milo proliferative disorder, which means there is kind of a mutation in my bone marrow that produces access platelets. And so got that diagnosis along with, while they were trying to figure that out, they also discovered that I had endometriosis. Jeez. And so kind of this like combination of what do these two things mean? Um, and with specifically the essential thrombocytosis I think a key part it was, they were just really surprised and it was very unknown because usually that's something that's someone that's like 60 or 70. Well maybe, see. And for me they were like, well, we really like don't have a lot of information on someone your age, much less like a woman your age having this particular blood disorder. And so yeah, dealing with a lot of the unknowns and a big one was we don't know what this looks like long-term. And especially specifically in terms of, you know, fertility of like you having children in the future of like what that could be or what that would look like. We really just don't know. And so at the time of kind of this, I guess diagnosis, I was trying to finish grad school, um, I was engaged and planning a wedding and then at the same time all of a sudden was dealing with these like kind of really big life and health questions. And so, um, you know, now this is over 10 years ago that all of this happened. And so kind of how to navigate that, of like having this diagnosis, these big unknowns around, um, are you going to be able to have kids or not? Is it safe for you? Can you even carry a baby? And you know, back then a lot of the doctor's answers were literally like, we don't know, um, along with, you know, the medication and everything that I was on. Um, you know, it was a lot to take in and adjust to at the time. And then kind of, I think what, that's what road that has kind of led on as I've been navigating life while also holding, you know, this diagnosis

Lauren: that was such a big time of transformation. Uh, what's the other word that I'm thinking of? Just that was such a time of transition for you. That's the word I was looking for.

Michelle: Yeah, I think it would have been such a big time of transition no matter what. But then kind of factoring in like, yeah, there's this health big health, and it was really at like a health question because there wasn't like one test that they could do that would say yes or no, you have this, it was like going through like a bone marrow biopsy, ultrasound, CT scans, and essentially ruling out every other possibility until that was all that was left. And so, you know, it was really tolerating a lot of like uncertainty and just like, well we don't know, so we're going to do this now. And kind of that holding of just waiting and

Lauren: It's so incredibly vulnerable to be in the place of not knowing, having medical professionals tell you this is an issue. We need to look at it. And then in the not knowing, going through some, in some cases, very invasive tests.

Michelle: Yeah, it was scary at the time. But then also at some points it was like, well, I don't have enough information to even know what I'm like supposed to worry about. Um, right now. So, uh, you know, I think it was also like how to, I don't know, try to control the wary. Um, and from like playing out the worst case scenario of like just waiting and, and seeing. But yeah, it was a really just vulnerable time.

Lauren: Yeah. That was such a relief when I heard you say, I wasn't sure what to worry about cause it's something that with my multiple sclerosis comes up, fair amount. And I don't know if that's a question you still sit with. Yeah. But at that point it was, I don't know what disease or condition to worry about and I don't know. Does that show up for you now that you do have an answer?

Michelle: Yeah, it definitely does because I think there's still, like, because of my diagnosis was so much earlier than they've typically seen this blood disorder show up for people. There's still like some unknown of like what does this look like over the lifetime? Or the medication that I was on was essentially it was a chemotherapy medication. And so, okay, well what impacts is that going to have? What is going to happen now when I first started it, but then also over a lifetime of being on this medication that was helping me manage my platelet levels. So yeah, I think that that unknown is still very much present. And even after, um, you know, we kind of initially got it figured out, my levels were, you know, kind of put back into a safe place, um, where I wasn't at risk of like blood clots essentially and everything that comes with a high platelet level, you know, there was just even the unknown of, you know, knowing that I wanted to have kids and a family one day and wondering like, what does that even going to look like? Is that, can I biologically have children or not?

Lauren: Yeah. And so that's a skip to that. Yes or yes.

Michelle: Yes. It was skipping to that answer. You know, there was a lot of questions. I remember at one point I went to a doctor's office to see a Perry ne tologist, um, his, a high risk pregnancy doctor to see kind of what they thought and, and what this could look like. And I literally was handed a study on mice, um, was like the closest to research that they had around the my condition.

Lauren: Michelle, that must've been, what was that like to have them give that to you as the rep?

Michelle: It was, it was, so, you know, I think it was really like disappointing and also scary that I was sent to this expert that was supposed to like know and give me answers on like Mark, my husband was there and we're hoping to figure out like, what would this look like? And instead it was, well really, we don't know the most that we know is this current study right now. And even then, it's not really specific. And it was like, well, I'm a human, I'm not a mouse.

Lauren: Um, and that's the first thing that came into my mind. I said that right. I mean it's dehumanizing to not have information about like our fellow humans [inaudible] and I don't know, that just sounds like a very stark alone feeling.

Michelle: Yeah, it was really like, gosh, like has anyone like been through this? Like, how can I be the only one that there's no information about this out there. And so, you know, after that there was kind of more questions and more seen doctors and eventually I got connected to a really incredible Perry ne tologist maternal fetal medicine doctor. And she said, you know what, I think I know what's going to happen and I have experience and things that are similar. And so from there that really kicked off a path of, you know, speeding up of that. I was able to get pregnant and, um, it was a high risk pregnancy. But you know, now I'm the mom of a wonderful little 19 month old. And so it's really kind of amazing to reflect on like the early days of my diagnosis with you. And then thinking about where I'm at now and how significant that's been, but also like how much hope the past me would've had for being in this place right now.

Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And I want to kind of say that, I know it's not as simple as there's a beginning, middle, and an end. This is the lifelong path. But yeah, certainly wasn't one you chose. But that's part of how you're living is there's uncertainty. There aren't precedents of others who have been in this situation. So you are living your path not knowing. Yeah. What it means for your longevity, for your ability levels of ability. Right.

Michelle: Yeah. Right. There's risk and, and I think, you know, a, when I go see my doctor and you know, a do the blood tests, you know, I think there's always a part of me that feels really aware and maybe even a little triggered if like, Oh gosh, what are they gonna find? Right. Because that was how all of this started was just like this as a routine blood test. And so, you know, even though you know, a part of me knows what to expect, I think there's always that like moment of like bracing myself for like what could happen.

Lauren: Yeah. I just, I have so much reverence for that. I have so much tenderness for that not knowing, cause when you say it, it touches the part of me that feels it. And I know that there are so many people listening to this who are like, yeah, yes, yes. That's how I feel too. And there's this tenderness, this very innocent.

Michelle: Yeah.

Lauren: Part of us, it's almost like I'm thinking of the inner child. That's like, what's going to happen.

Michelle: Right, right.

Lauren: You don't know.

Michelle: Yeah. How do you hold that and like that? I think it feels so vulnerable, right? That like just that uncertainty and feeling like there's always this risk.

Lauren: And I think that's where I just feel really called to just sit in that with you right now that there isn't an answer. You know, there isn't a happy ending. There's now ness. Yeah. What else to go. But there's just this sense of [inaudible] that's part of the mystery and the wonder of having a body, right. And having a body where we know there's some condition going on and sitting with that we don't know. There's something really powerful there too. I mean it's certainly hard, but then there's also this other energy of like, there's something about it that brings me closer to my alive notice.

Michele: Yeah. Yeah. There's so much like possibility and the part that you said about the alignment I think really just resonates and um, I think the other thing that comes to mind of like, yeah, what, what you can do and continue to do in spite of there being an unknown,

Lauren: like this is just getting at the heart of something. It's beautiful, powerful and painful at the same time, you know?

Michelle: And I think it feels really powerful sitting here with you and knowing that like you get it right. And I think that it's so meaningful I think to have that experience of like you and I sitting across from each other right now, looking at each other eyes and just like, yes, yes. That this is so real.

Lauren: Yeah. It's like, let's hang out in the unknown in that vulnerability, but also in the, I keep trying to find a word for it. There isn't a word for it. It's just almost like surrendering to the fact that I'm not in charge. Yeah. And that I still choose to play the game. I'm like, I still want to get in. If life is the ocean, I'm still getting in the ocean. Yeah. I'm still showing up for the swim and I don't know if a wave's going to come. I don't know if the crabs going to bite my toe. I don't know what's going to happen.

Michelle: But like you're in the water and in like the beauty of it and in the thick of it and you know, that takes courage to show up in.

Lauren: And I think we live our lives kind of like, I think about you and you have this full psychotherapy practice and you're a mom and you're a wife and you're a friend and your family member and you're very busy in your daily life, you know? And I similarly have my life and it's like, Oh, just keep going, keep going. But then there's this other thing that not everybody has, which is this awareness of a little bit of like, Oh, there's something different about me or there's something unique about my situation that's kind of fragile.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. I think it, you know, to have something that isn't obvious, you wouldn't look at me and be like, no, that I have a bunch of extra platelets essentially. You know? But yeah, I think it can feel like this, this thing that you're holding that people don't know about or even feel a little isolating, you know? I think I definitely felt that at times of, you know, being with people and of course questions come up of like, when are you going to have kids or you would be such a great mom. And you know, I appreciate the thought and sentiment, but then my answer, there's something painful in it too, because for a long time it was, I don't know or, well, are you ready to sit down for a longer story than you anticipated when you asked me that question? So yes or no, maybe. Yeah. And so, um, yeah. How do you hold being like this person with this very full life and at the same time there's this other aspect to your life that many people wouldn't know and don't know and less a situation comes up. But I decided to share it.

Lauren: Hmm. How do you hold that in the midst of someone who doesn't quite get it? Or maybe I should say someone who doesn't get it yet.

Michelle: Yeah. I think choosing like where do I feel okay sharing this?

Lauren: That's a great question.

Michelle: You know, like does it feel okay to go here right now? And that could be depending on the day, the person, where am I at personally in it. But you know, I think I also tend to lean into when I can and when it feels safe, being vulnerable with it and being real because I think it's important to name and acknowledge like struggles and especially health stuff and fertility stuff and just normalizing it. And so I think when it feels okay for me, it feels important to step into that.

Lauren: It can be really liberating sometimes. I think that being confident and sharing it is liberating for other people. And then in another way, being timid and sharing it, even though I'm scared is liberating. Yes. For me and for them. Like there's both work.

Michelle: Yeah. Like it, I find that more often. I think it leads to a meaningful kind of action or interaction or I think even the opening of conversation, right? There's people that I've told that nothing comes of it at that point, but then someone reaches back out later and says, Hey, I have this health thing going on, or I'm really struggling right now with my fertility. Do you remember that thing that we talked about? And you know, for me that's such powerful moments of not, not, I'm glad that someone's going through something as well, but I'm so glad that they were maybe able to feel a little bit less alone in it because week we're able to connect on something and share that vulnerable moment at an earlier point in time.

Lauren: Yeah, it is that like not wanting people to have to deal with the health stuff, but then also wanting to feel like for those of us who do have the health stuff, it's nice to connect. It's nice to get together and kind of normalize it and and have it be part of the conversation. It can be an incredible weight lifted when there's certain things that don't need to be explained, you know, where you can kind of be like, Oh, you know the thing. Okay, I know the thing. Cool. So that's your starting place versus having a whole conversation to get there. Whether the thing is the fact that we don't know what the trajectory is or we don't know if we're able to get pregnant or we don't know, whatever. That that kind of conversation isn't one that, not that everybody has. So when we can have it together, it's really special.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. And I think for me like it's amazing. I think just the depth of connection that has come friend one we've been able to share and like those relationships of, yeah, just being really real and then being able to hold that of like when I am having a hard day with it or something happens of like knowing who can I call and connect with and be like, this feels really hard right now.

Lauren: Hmm. That is so important too. Because going back to that feeling of loneliness, sometimes I wonder if even more important than having the same experience, it's really that we can have some people who regardless of whether they've had the experience, we can call in those hard moments, reach out because the feeling alone, that feeling of aloneness often wants to tell me that I'm so alone that nobody else is going to get it, so I might as well not talk to anyone. And so in the reaching out, like I have some friends who totally don't have this disease or who don't have a chronic illness, but they're up for the conversation. And that's really special too.

Michelle: Yeah. I think it reminds me of, have you seen that Rene Brown video about empathy?

Lauren: Yes.

Michelle: Yeah. And like the little like, it's like the bear, the moose crawls into the hall with the mouse and just like sits in it. Like, you know, who are those people that can chest, are willing to get down in it with you regardless of whether they have the same experience or not, but they're able to empathize and be there.

Lauren: Yeah. It's that willingness to crawl down into the hole of experience and not make it change. That helps so much. Like when I said to you, I want to sit with you in the tender, not knowing this, it was like I just want to be in that space of not having answers with you for a little while and when my friends and loved ones can do that with me, it's almost like I don't even need words necessarily. What I need is to feel either my hand being held or to feel someone's gaze. Yeah, that is unflinching. Like they're not darting around the room or making the conversation about something else, but they're just able to maybe even just take a deep breath with me.

Michelle: Just being able to sit in it, even if it's uncomfortable.

Lauren: I keep thinking about it as like a pool or a body of water where it's like, come on, let's get in the body of water together and not know what's going to happen and just be in it. Just experiencing it real time in this moment. Yeah. So one of the topics you like talking about, which I also like talking about is who is your medical team? How did they become your medical team? What did you, what role do you play in that? So what's been your experience?

Michelle: Yeah. So I feel really lucky that I feel like I have a great medical team, but I also know that it's something that was important to me and I prioritized and advocated for. And I think that's where I feel really passionate about of finding a team that you feel like you connect with and you trust. Um, which I talk about this all the time as a therapist when I'm, I'm trying to help someone find a therapist or figure out if it's a fed of, you know, the relationship is the most important. Do you feel comfortable? Do you trust the person? And I think it's the same thing for all medical providers. I was really lucky that the very first doctor I worked with, he and I just really connected and weird coincidence is like we were getting married on the same day and it was funny. And his fiance, um, with similarly getting done with grad school for psychology and with starting her hours. And so just like some parallels of just really feeling like he got it in terms of like the weight of what I was experiencing from a medical perspective, but also what it meant to be doing that in the particular timing of my life that just so happen to be similar to my own. And I think, you know, I haven't had other funny coincidences with other doctors like that, but I think it really helps set up the expectation of I wanted to connect with my doctors, um, to really feel like they were a part of my team and figuring out and navigating this unknown. And so, you know, asking for recommendations from them of like, okay, who do you know that has a specialty that can connect with us? And really getting to follow that. And it's just this so important and is really top of mind right now as I'm looking for new providers. If with a recent move and okay, how can I be intentional about building that team of people again?

Lauren: Yeah. And I think it takes, like you said, intention and it also takes a certain amount of emotional fortitude because it can be very discouraging. It can be time consuming, energy consuming, dealing with the mismatches I think can be the hardest. Like how do you know? And I'm asking you, I'm asking rhetorically, I'm asking me like, how do you know when it's not a right fit? Like what's your little ping that, Ooh, this doesn't feel right. You know?

Michelle: Yeah. I feel like I went through it recently with a doctor of mine that it felt like we were kind of approaching it from different perspectives. And I know that she completely had my best interest at heart, but also I was feeling really pulled in another direction. And so it was actually talking to one of my other doctors and my own therapist that really helped remind me like, Hey Michelle, like you can switch doctors. Um, and even though that's something that I knew that I have advocated for multiple times, it's still took someone reflecting back to me of like, Hey, have you considered switching? And that for me being like, okay, yeah, let's try someone else and see if it feels different, if that is more of what I'm looking for in this case, you know, that ended up being, what happened was I got a referral to another doctor and just found someone that was much more in alignment for where I happened to be at at that point in time.

Lauren: That's so cool. Being able to step back and assess is so powerful that you had your therapist reflect with you had another doctor. Sometimes it's a friend or a family member to be able to say this doesn't feel great. And I, it's actually reminding me of when I, I had a neurologist who was telling me about a medication I was choosing between two medications. I had already gone through two, it didn't work for me because of the side effects. And then we're onto the third and I was like one fork in the road or the other. And I said, you know, if it was you, what would you take? And she said, Oh, I take this one. And I was like, well that one seems like it's going to be scary cause I can't get a heart attack the first can take it. So I don't want to do that. But it was neat to be able to interact with her in that way and be able to say to her, I think you and I have different priorities. And she was totally accepting of that. And so I chose to stay with her because of that, you know, like yeah, we looked at it differently, but I was asking her a personal opinion and she totally respected that. I didn't want to go with that med. And then similarly I had a conversation with my new neurologist recently and she was telling me about the drug that I'm currently on, which I kind of intentionally don't disclose because I don't want to promote a certain medication over another because everybody has to pick what's right for them. But, um, she was telling me that the drug I'm on right now as one that used to be a little risky, maybe seem a little bit extreme or it seemed not extreme, but like less conservative choice. But now I look at it and I look at the research. I really truly believe this is the drug I wish I had been recommended earlier on. And when she shared with me that she's become more forthright with patients. And from the beginning I said to her very intentionally, I want to just tell you I appreciate on their behalf that you're sharing that information with them and that you're telling them about this drug, even though it might seem less conservative on your part because it has so much going for it. And so we've got to have this great conversation about how her recommendations impact others and how I'm supporting her. And it just felt like, Oh, we're all having a conversation as a community. And to be able to do that with my doctors is key. And I've had doctors before where I'm like, Oh my gosh, I can't even really talk to you in the way that I need to talk to you. And I just had to link up with somebody else instead. So it takes time.

Michelle: And I think, um, you know, I think knowing what you have the emotional bandwidth for to, you know, when I was kind of going through my pregnancy and shortly after like I was thinking about switching doctors and I was also like, I can't take this on right now. Um, and so, um, knowing that like I wasn't in harm's way, I wasn't worried about my like healthcare plan, but also like, okay, things are good for now. And kind of going back to what you were saying earlier about having a conversation with your doctor, like, you know, I also think about like the doctor taking into account what I wanted and what felt important, you know. So for me, a really big question was after I had my son, um, I really wanted to be able to breastfeed him and that just felt like a really personal decision. I was also one that I think was a part of my own healing process with my body and what kind of happened through pregnancy and post-pregnancy. And so being able to talk to a doctor about that of like, Hey, I really want to do this. How can we make that happen? And being able to have a doctor that was able to really inform it, really engaged with me. I'm like, how could we do that? What would the risks be like, Hey, how could we mitigate those risks? Um, felt so just supportive and important.

Lauren: You're able to prepare and plan for something that was really important to you. Your doctor was able to prioritize along with you.

Michelle: Yes.

Lauren: Which is so cool. And part of your role in that was really strongly saying, Hey, this is what I want. Yeah. Help. Help me do this. Yeah.

Michelle: Yeah. And I think that's part of knowing what I wanted and I think that definitely took reflection of like, what is it that I want, like view what have asked me? Is this something that felt really important to you? I think a couple of years ago I would have said no. And that has shifted and changed for me. And so being aware of that and that was okay. That that is something maybe I hadn't thought about before that in the moment when it was like, no, this feels, this feels important. This feels right to me.

Lauren: Yeah, I love that. And I think this conversation is nice to be having in a more public way right now too because it's such a personal thing and just normalizing. But it's okay to not click with a medical provider is so important. And you know, I would say that every episode, well I could say that every episode I don't, but maybe I should just that I love talking about this cause I think it's so important for people to hear that it's okay.

Michelle: Yeah. But it's okay. And there's, there's options out there, right? That there are other doctors that you can connect with other therapists that you can connect with. Um, uh, finding who feels like the right fit for you. And you know, that I really just, yeah, it's something that feels really important of like people feeling empowered to, to make those decisions and build like their team. You're not just a team of experts, but like, who is your team of experts?

Lauren: I like that. What does it mean to you to live a fulfilling life? And is that impacted that definition of foment? Is that impacted by your health journey?

Michelle: Realizing that my health journey and like my health challenges don't get in the way of fulfillment, that my fulfillment that me having kind of this wholehearted life that I feel connected to and fulfilled by isn't limited by my health challenges. That yeah. That they're challenges that maybe I have to overcome or figure out or navigate as a part of seeking out that fulfillment or meaning, but that it hasn't gotten in my way. Yeah. I think thinking of that perspective of everything that I've been able to do and accomplish and yeah, sometimes there's extra things to navigate or extra things that I'm doing, but that it's not limiting.

Lauren: Yeah. And I wonder if, I don't know if you relate to this or if I'm interpreting you the right way, but when we talk about fulfillment, I've noticed in my health journey that there have been things that I really wanted but couldn't have because of physical limitations, but that the essence of that thing is still attainable. It's just I need to find another way to get there. Yeah. And I think that's, I kind of that reminder, what you just said reminded me of that.

Michelle: Well, and I think related to what you said, I think to me that that comes back to like values and what are my values and my values are not like thing dependent or plan dependent or that I need to control for something to happen. That my values are like there's different paths to fulfilling and being connected to my values and yeah, sometimes that could mean adjusting or having to deal with something, but I can still be aligned with my values.

Lauren: So there's an openness to how you get there. Yeah. It's just so cool. Yes. And it goes along with that living in the not knowing [inaudible]

Michelle: Yeah, yeah. That it's okay not to know. And you know, for me personally, I tend, you know, I can definitely lean into perfectionism and wanting to control. And so really being okay with the vulnerability that comes with not knowing and embracing that. And that in and of itself is I think really fulfilling of it's okay to not be in control and not know. And that it actually gives, I don't know, coming to my like permission to be fulfilled.

Lauren: Do you have any funny stories from your health journey? Any funny moments?

Michelle: I don't know if this feels relevant of funny, but I do feel like there's been a lot of joyful moments, right. I've just been able to like laugh with my doctors or um, you know, with my husband of just being able to, I don't know, find, I guess the joy and humor and like small moments, you know, of kind of going through the initial diagnosis. There was definitely like an irony to like sitting through ultrasounds together or bone marrow biopsies amongst choosing wedding venues and wedding photographers and just being able to, I think kind of like laugh at the irony of that, of like we were truly doing in sickness and in health in a very real way as um, and yeah, just kind of appreciating those moments.

Lauren: Yeah. I think being able to laugh, not in the sense that like, it's funny, but to laugh at how wild it is.

Michelle: Yes.

Lauren: It kind of loosens things up a little bit. And I'm imagining you going through that time in your life and just true like peaks and valleys all at once.

Michelle: Yeah, yeah. I think of, you know, towards the end of my pregnancy I, um, developed preeclampsia, which is one of the risks of my health condition and going into a pregnancy. And so, you know, kind of being on bedrest at the end and, you know, remembering I was trying to hold on so tightly to my like carefully crafted plan of like how and when I was going to go on maternity leave and all these things I was going to accomplish and you know, kind of laughing with my doctors of like, well, I guess I have to let go of that too. Right. And like that was like, you know, I think the lesson, the theme of like, okay, at what point am I going to, you know, really know that. But I think it's, it's always evolving of like, okay, this is going to be okay. It's not according to plan and it's going to be just fine. And yeah. Reflecting back, is it okay that that happened and I was able to still have a healthy baby and navigate preeclampsia? Yes. Um, but you know, at the time it was like, Oh, this just feels like another thing.

Lauren: Yeah. Oh my gosh. There's so much to go through and also your attitude through it. It sounds almost like the way that you responded in that statement. I guess that's another thing. I just, it feels like a pivot.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Just knowing like I think in having like the, I don't know. Yeah. I guess just knowing that we're going to come out on the other side of it, it's going to be okay.

Lauren: Yeah. What do you have now that you might not have had without your health challenges?

Michelle: I think there was a point that I really shifted from thinking that my body was working against me or had betrayed me in some way to realizing that my body was working with me to overcome this health challenge and for me that was such a transformational, I think shift or reframe to have of wow. Like, no, it's a, we were doing this together. We are navigating how to get through these challenges together and my body's working with me and I think it was a realization that took some time and I feel like really cemented as I went through pregnancy and navigated that and just all of the fear and the risk that was there of like, no, my body's doing this with me and it's not against me.

Lauren: Wow. That's mind blowing and totally makes sense. I love that as an option for a frame for this or an option for a lens to look through because that's been one of the hardest parts. Like so I have an autoimmune disease and a lot of people say, my body's attacking itself and that just doesn't feel true for me. My bodies, I mean that just doesn't feel, it doesn't sink, it doesn't click, but to look at it as my body is also dealing with ms, not just me and my soul. It's like my body's dealing with it and we're working together to do what we can. And this thought just came to my mind if you're up for it, this is a little bit of an experiment, but if your body could write you a love letter. Mm Hmm. What would your body be saying to you about all these health challenges?

Michelle: Yeah, I feel a little emotional even thinking about it, but I think, you know, my body I think would, would have been telling me and is telling me. Like, you can do this, we do this. Like I've got you [inaudible] you know, and that's in the good and the bad. Um, you know, that there has been and will be other health complications to come and that my body is going to continue to help me do what I love to do and live that fulfilling life in spite of it. Like, we can overcome this, you know, that in and of itself, like I'm not alone in it.

Lauren: Well, yeah, it's like this team experience. And when you said you felt emotional, thinking about that, what came up for you?

Michelle: I think just how much of a shift there has been there. Hate that I did not always feel that way. Yeah. I felt like I need to overcome this thing that my body is doing and figure it out and realizing how my body has actually been working really hard for me. And you know, I think that comes like whole picture of like embracing my body and my self image and my self esteem and all of these things that I've been hard on myself for. I've been hard on my body for or just I wish I looked a certain way or do these things and realizing like, gosh I, I wasn't giving my body credit for everything that it has enabled me to do in spite of this diagnosis. Dealing with all those extra platelets and all of that. All of what came up.

Lauren: Yeah. I just love that and thank you cause I'm going to use that as a resource now personally to, you know.

Michelle: I’m glad.

Lauren: Keep in mind that my body's working so hard to be here and that it isn't always easy. That's part of what makes it so sacred. Yeah. Like when you talk about it that way, is this, this partnership often I think we feel like we need to disassociate from our bodies.

Michelle: Yeah.

Lauren: And in reality that can be what gets some of us through.

Michelle: And I think also what can get me through is this idea of partnership and just being able to be present in that. You know, that I think I am more in my body now than I ever have been. And it feels like a safe place to be.

Lauren: And that's pretty powerful statement considering you know all that you've been through and what your body's still going through. Yeah. So finish this sentence. This is not what I ordered

Michelle: And that's okay.

Lauren: Yeah, I can just see as you say that there's something about you that looks so almost Regal. There's this like glow free like that is okay. And I can see that partnership with your body there as you say it. Well, thank you so much for joining me.

Michelle: Thank you for having me.

Lauren: This was really fun.