Episode 68: Apart Together

Guests: Courtney Brame and Monica Michelle

Lauren: So let's just start off with thanks for being here. The two of you have not met before. So this is a bit of a reunion episode and that you're returning guests but also it's not a reunion episode cause it's sort of your first time meeting each other. And I want to thank you for joining me and being a part of this little quarantine episode where we get to talk about how you've been since we last saw you and how quarantine has been for you. So just start off by seeing how are you both doing? 

Courtney: Ladies first.

Monica: Well I’m not one, so you go ahead.

Courtney: Oh, right. Well, um, I've been, well I think, uh, our interview was maybe two years ago. It's been a while. 

Lauren: Yeah, you were part of season one.

Courtney: Ooh. So a lot's happened since then. So at that point in time, something positive for positive people, which was at that point, just a podcast where I was interviewing people with herpes about their experience actually expanded out into more of a, uh, it was a nonprofit. So I'm, I'm helping people who are struggling with the stigma, who are struggling with their diagnosis, with getting therapy. So, um, we have affordable options for people and like discounted rates and then the people who just can't afford it. Um, I'm hesitant to make that announcement right now because, uh, we only have so much money, but if like a couple of people were to reach out for therapy, we'd be able to help connect them with a therapist that they feel safe with in terms of discussing their herpes diagnosis. Right. Um, Yeah. Quarantine. I've been, I mean I'm more antsy than anything. I think that this has been a good time with me just kind of being with myself, cause I haven't had to do that before. I did it a little bit before quarantine started because it was like, you know what, I'm going to work on myself. And then this happened. So I felt like I was a little bit more prepared for it. Um, but at this point now I'm just kind of getting antsy because it's like, all right, it doesn't seem like anyone's on the same page about this. Like the masses. When do you wear a mask, when do you not wearing masks, who goes back to work? What's open, what's not open, what's happening at the grocery stores? Why do all these people all of a sudden have dogs and they're walking their dogs now? Like that's, that's been a weird day for me to just see so many people all of a sudden with dogs because I walk up and down the same street all the time and I've seen a significant increase of number of people who are now outside walking dogs. So good for the animals. Um, but that, I mean, I think that that really sums up quarantine and I mean, if you want to take it to like what, like online dating and relationships have been like, we can go there, but that's, I feel like I should let Monica talk before we get into that.

Monica: Keep going. I’m here for the dog chat. 

Lauren: So, um, first off, congratulations on starting a nonprofit. That's a huge deal. That's kind of amazing.

Courtney: Thank you. Thank you. It's been a year. Oh, today marks a year. What's today?

Lauren: The 23rd.

Courtney: Oh, tomorrow it will be tomorrow. It was almost an anniversary episode. You can just say here that we're actually recording on Sunday and then posted with all references being for Sunday the 24th which is a one year anniversary of Something Positive for Positive People as a nonprofit organization.

Lauren: Well, congratulations on the one year anniversary.

Courtney: 364 days.

Lauren: I know. I should really just wait one day, but that's wonderful. And it's such an important resource and so needed, so well done. And it sounds like you're doing okay, but you're starting to get antsy quarantine-wise. Yeah.

Courtney: Yeah. I mean it's just really the uncertainty of everything and the inconsistency of like everyone, it seems just like so many people are doing kind of their own thing. It's like, all right, well what's what's right? What's effective, what's not effective, what's useful. So it's just kinda like that.

Lauren: Yeah, I think that probably a lot of people listening can relate to that. I think I definitely do the different types of information and attitudes and responses to the rules and the recommendations and all of that. And as humans, I think we're, we're critical thinkers. So I think sometimes people are thinking through, well, what, how much do I actually need to adhere to these, you know, how long do I need to go? And of course I've shared this before on the podcast, but I feel pretty strongly that I'm going to continue to be as isolated as possible beyond when things go quote unquote back to normal just because of my immunosuppressing drugs. And so for me, it's pretty easy to just stay away from everybody for now in terms of easy to make that decision. But I know not everybody's in that same boat. How are you doing, Monica? 

Monica: Well, I'm actually at my, my, uh, makeup table. So my daughter rearranged things so she could do her makeup. So realized as everything dropped that it was not nearly as stable as I thought it was. That's a great thing about living with a 13-year-old too. I'm basically like living with a small raccoon magpie who just, I never know where any of my stuff is. Jewelry, shoes, shirts, dresses. It’s everywhere. I'm sorry. Yeah, that was off topic. 

Lauren: How have you been since we last talked to you on the podcast? 

Monica: When was that? Was it like a year or two years? Like a year ago? I'm like oh my god it’s been forever.

Lauren: You were a part of season two, Jesus.

Monica: Well, we turned the podcast into a network, so that was kind of the big, big switch this year was, um, that, uh, I took on my old cohost, had a whole bunch of, uh, personal family issues and had to leave the podcast. And my new cohost has energy. She's so cute. I love her. Oh my God. 30 looks so young now. It's adorable. And she has the energy to do things. So she kind of pushed us towards a network. So we now have, um, three or four podcasts on our network and we're hoping to get, um, more people who are doing chronic illness podcasts to join the network so that we could, um, kind of brings some shows that I was, I'm really hoping to bring out, like I'm really hoping to get more advice on. I was really shocked when we started showing up in countries that I've never even heard of or had even like hoped to visit yet. And I realized a lot of those countries were underserved in things like occupational therapy and um, counseling and therapy, uh, definitely in sex and chronic illness and disability help. So I really was kind of hoping that um, we have a few people who aren't just constant guests that I'm trying to transition into their own podcast so that they can, they can reach a wider audience to people who really need their help. 

Lauren: Yeah. Wow. Congratulations on your new network. 

Monica: It's really exciting. We're trying to figure out how to… so we're all out of pocket. We have no advertisers. We, we don't advertise, we don't charge for any, like all of our content is free. We have a Patreon account, but I don't have anything that you can buy except like you can buy a tee shirt but all content is free and I'm not changing that ever.

Courtney: Same.

Monica: Yeah, you too. Yeah. It was just like, I got really kind of pissed off and like one of my favorite podcasts put a paywall and I'm like, no, I get that you need to make money. I totally get that. I understand. And they're like, I get it. And I'm in a super privileged position where I don't have to, to eat or pay for where I live. That's a tremendous level of privilege where I feel like I need to take advantage of that privilege and make what I, I have to keep it out there to everyone. I, we would like to be able to not pay out of pocket for all of our expenses. Um, so we're kind of hoping to be able to take on some advertising in the next few years so that the advertising can pay for content. Yeah. 

Courtney: That's awesome that you want to be able to provide that to people for free without any kind of a pay wall for stuff that you're able to do it.

Monica: Exactly. Yeah. I mean like I'm, I'm in a tremendous level of privilege that I, I don't have to worry about those things, so I can, I feel like that's the responsibility of privilege, right? Like if you have it, you make sure that you can like help other people get to where you can be. So that's, yeah, that was the exciting part. Um, finished another book, started a new podcast because why not? 

Lauren: Which podcast did you start? 

Monica: I started one for kids. I am kind of a history freak, so I'm, I started a 10 minute podcast for kids with moments of history that are like way beyond wars and dates. So I did an entire season on the history of robots. I mean like, it's so cool. Like you think history robots were like, I don't know, 1960s. Right? It was like no ancient Greece. Like there was like full on programmable automaton robots playing music. Like, not just recorded music but like playing music in the 12th century. 

Lauren: Wow. That's so cool. And you, you are… 

Monica Courtney, that is exactly how I felt when I did the research and I'm like what… 

Courtney: I'm picturing, I'm picturing just like a huge radio, but then you say it plays music. So now I'm like, Oh my God, this was an alien. 

Monica: It was crazy. Cause like I do research and they were like ascribing this like system. I swear to God I will not go on this for two line. But it just, it floored me cause they were like, this was like invented in the 17th century and I did a whole bunch more research and I found that it was actually, um, I'll just, Algizari who invented this cam system so you could actually like record different songs, but they weren't recorded. He created like bellows for like lungs and the hands and everything. We'd actually play the music and it wasn't just a recording that came out and it was all hydraulic powered. It was a thing that went around on a lake in the 12th century. So it was like that's I would like first off that’s awesome. Secondly, if you can make robots that can do anything without using battery or electricity, what would that mean for what people could create in areas where this unstable, if all you need is like a way to file something and a hard surface to make these cam shafts and systems that can create a series of movement. Like that's, that's pretty inspiring and interesting. I would have loved that class and when I was eight. 

Lauren: That is amazing. I did not know any of that. I would just like to say, Monica, because you shared some pretty exciting stuff. Also, I want to acknowledge, you said you just wrote a book. What book did you write? 

Monica: I actually am writing a series. So the first book is in with uh, the editor right now. And then the second book is almost done with like first draft. So we'll see. I had an agent who was kind of interested. I sent her the first round. She's like, I love it. It's not a plot. So I went back and I spent this year making it into a plot for her. So we'll see if she still wants it when, when it's done editing. 

Lauren: So it was a fiction book. 

Monica: Fantasy. Yeah. 

Lauren: Ooh, yeah. 

Monica: I'm such a nerd. I'm going to such a doctor who nerd like this. My reality like, well, a lot of it's pretty awesome. Like living in a body that does not work at all. It's really nice to escape reality and make my own universe.

Lauren: That's fantastic. And so congratulations on all of that. I heard you say you're staying at your mom's right now or hanging out visiting? 

Monica: No, I, I don't get to visit, which breaks my heart. My dad's, um, bedbound, so I haven't gotten to, um, when I'm healthy enough to stand their houses, like not a disabled person's dream, they're stairs. So we drop off the groceries every few days because my dad is so sick that, um, any chance of catching us this would be catastrophic. So, um, we bring groceries to him. Either my son does it when I'm not healthy enough to get down the stairs or, um, which is more and more, but when we do, I actually get to wave to him, which is kinda nice. Um, but my mom comes over to the house every once in a while to help out with some of the stuff, but we can't hug, we can't get within like even eight to 10 feet of each other. We have the kids here, so they stand on the porch and wave to her. But it's, I mean in some ways it's harder that way because you're so close and I'm so close to my family. Um, it's been really hard to, as I talked to my mom like at least a few times a week. So yeah, that's, that's, that's been kind of tough. Um, my dad's been super happy, which has been nice to now. He and I are watching Outlander together and we're um, writing each other. It was like dissertations on each episode. He's not healthy enough to do like that where you like Netflix in and then you have like the screen going, he's not healthy enough to sit up and type all that's going. So we're just kinda like separately watching episodes and he's like, and now that I'm like in my forties, he was like super interested in feminist theory. So he's like, so tell me the women's perspective on this and like, Oh, you did not want to open that door sir. So that's going to be fun. That'll be cute. So we're having like… 

Lauren: One of the best ways to keep in touch with someone other than that, you know, we know them, we love them, we talk about what's going on in our lives. Um, it's nice to have a common theme or topic to connect about. That's not what's going on in your life because then it kind of keeps you entertained and creative and kind of brainstorming together and it sounds, that sounds really fun. 

Monica: You also learn new things about each other too. Like if you're able to talk like a show, like any show, it's like things about lives that you haven't heard before will come up. 

Lauren: That's so cool. Well, Courtney, how are you doing in terms of social contact? Like, how are you getting, are you getting or do you see anybody that you know and wave to them?

Courtney: So I live down the street from my gym and I just walked down here and I'll work out. So I see a lot of neighbors in passing. I have a key so I can come in and work out. Um, occasionally I'll catch the owner, uh, who might come in and work out. But uh, yeah, I mean contact, I'm fine with. Um, I had a friend that I was seeing pre quarantine but then she had to quarantine. So, uh, it's been up in the air really. Like I have some form of human contact and interaction and a lot of this stuff that's digital has been really, um, it's nice to have, but I am a little bit concerned about like how reliant we're becoming to it. Like is this going to conform to a new normalcy of just so much virtual contact versus any physical social contact? Like are we going to have any sort of like … what were you going to say?

Lauren: No, I kind of agree with you. And I can just say from my perspective that so Tuesday of this week will be three months since I've had any human touch, any hugs, anything, even a handshake, which is nothing. And I think there is a part of my brain that is deciding I'm okay so that I can get through it. But that's sort of a protective mechanism. And I guess I'm not worried that, you know, I'll never, I'll never go back to interdependence the way that I used to, but I do think that it's going to take, I think that it's going to be a real process and a period of time to reintegrate and adjust to more in person contact because my brain now is just used to living on my own and being on my own. And you know, we're, we're still trying to figure out a way for my partner to come. And um, right now the borders closed, so he's up in Canada and not able to still not able to come down. But you know, the question that you brought up, Courtney, is an important one. And I think it's also a question that has probably been coming up for people with chronic illness for a long time around just limited social contact and not being able to see as many people because of physical restrictions and just not having as much ability to go out and be in the world.

Courtney: Yeah. Outside is looking really pleasant now. Uh, like just going to the park and going for walks for a while. It's been nice to like not have to work, but I'm finding that there's still this pull for some sort of a routine and structure and day to day life. So like I'll still wake up in the morning, I'll maybe read a chapter of a book and then my intention is usually to do yoga, go work out. One of those things usually happens and the other one does it. And then by eight o'clock, nine o'clock in the morning, like I'm done for the day, pretty much. I mean, I can do a little more reading, I could do some podcasts, editing, I can reach out to people. Um, I've gotten a lot of interviews and during this time period because more people have just been sitting down really. So, I mean that's been pretty pleasant, but it worries me a little bit just like, how will we reintegrate that, you know?

Lauren: Yeah. And it's a good question. I feel like it's one of those things we'll only know as we live into it. Right. But you're feeling the, I mean there's a sweetness to solitude and actually I don't know a lot of people living alone right now, but there is a sweetness to being able to decide our own schedules…

Monica: Y’all have a different life. I have people knocking on the door or running into my room or you know, inches away. I have nonstop people knocking on my door running into my room. Yeah. 

Lauren: So and so there is like, I know a lot of my friends who have kids especially are saying, I could really use some time to myself. I have a friend who is camping out in her car sometimes to get her work done. 

Monica: That's the cackle. That was a laugh and it turned into a cackle. 

Lauren: But it, you know, it's a real thing. So it's both are real, both have their benefits and drawbacks. 

Monica: I just want to go to the other side of the argument just cause I do that, but I understand the fear of wanting to like have the, the person to person thing. But I you usually don't get out of my house more than once a week and that's for a doctor's appointment and then grocery shopping on the way home. So I never get to do any of these things that are suddenly available. Like Hamilton is going to be on Disney plus I could never have gone to see that. I mean I want y'all to be able to…  no one needs to live my life. It's not as fun as the sounds. I swear I'm staying home all the time. Is you all know that now. But there are so many things that I wanted to do that because the world was temporarily abled, I was never going to get to do. And now that everyone's home, they're making all these concessions. Like if things keep continuing digitally, I might actually be able to work again. I could never have a job that I would have to be somewhere at a specific time. So the idea that we could meld this, that we've already created an infrastructure for where disabled people could see Broadway shows, we could see ballets, we could like the arts are very not accessible. If you cannot leave your house, you can not… like all of a sudden Google's like, Hey, we should put all these art museums on virtual reality and online. So now I can go and see them again. Like I can, I can see art gallery. It's the arts are so not accessible and that pisses me off because I am an art freak and I can't see plays. I can't see ballets usually until it's been 10 years and they're like, Oh yeah, we'll give you like this grainy recording that will allow you to stay up on YouTube. Maybe like, maybe, so I'm kind of hoping for a mix so that you know, those who can leave the house can, can have that experience again of going to the office or seeing each other. But I really want these inroads to stay. I've never been so social. I get now I have people who are like, Hey, you want to hang out on FaceTime? Yes. I would have loved that. You know, especially in the beginning, like the first two years of my diagnosis, it was like rats out of the Titanic of friends. Like everyone was gone. And I was like, I mean, I had my family, which I'm super lucky. I have kids, I have a wonderful husband. Um, and I have some friends who stayed, but it was very solitary and I would like this to continue where I still get to see people. 

Courtney: I appreciate that perspective. 

Lauren: It's a huge deal. 

Monica: Yeah. I totally hear both of you and I understand it. I just don't want to lose this either. 

Lauren: All of us are true. Yeah. Yeah.

Courtney: It makes me look at it kind of like, um, you don't know like what you have until you don't have it anymore. And then on the flip side of that, it's like having never really had this, now that you have this thing that everyone else is like, Oh, this is so stupid. You’re like this great!

Monica: Yeah. Well the thing is, is we've all heard all the time is, Oh God, you must be so lucky. You have all this time on your hands. You are so lucky. You get to stay home all the time. Oh, you can't even leave your bed. Oh, I would kill to be able to stay in my bed for a month. It's like quarantine is a little different when it's a bed. Like I just telling you already, now it's very different when it's a bed.

Lauren: And physical limitations are not a vacation. 

Monica: Can you underline that?

Lauren: Sure. That'll be the name of the podcast episode now. 

Courtney: I mean, maybe that sounded good. That's how I do it. It's up. It comes up. It's like, Ooh, I like that. Alright.

Monica: Yeah. Well, I keep a notepad by my desk while I'm doing the, uh…

Courtney: I get so distracted. So I've tried to outline what the structure of conversations are going to be and I never touch the points. It never happens. I cannot say on a topic. 

Lauren: Yes. I think that's when I've liked the blessings and the curses of of podcast hosting is like just knowing you kind of have this role of being the one who's supposed to hold the structure but also being willing to be flexible. So we could probably have a whole conversation just on that. But I do want to say that it's really important for me. I want to acknowledge that. I think one of the hidden super powers we were just talking about superheroes and chronic illness, one of the hidden or maybe not hidden super powers that we, we must have with chronic illness is being able to step outside of us a certain unconscious rhythm or pattern of overworking overstressing because our bodies don't let us do that. It's just not possible. And so there are a lot of people out in the rest of the world who are overworking over stressing and living a certain lifestyle that leads them to long for time in bed time off, time out, time away. And so then there's sometimes there's this perception that like, Oh, you're you, you have fatigue or you have mobility issues on, you get to sit down all the time. And it's like, well, there's still a longing for that person to slow down, but maybe this isn't the way to do it. Right? The illness is not the recommended way to take a break. Yeah. 

Monica: The thing is is like you can hold two things. You can hold like the gratitude for the things that chronic illness gives you, which it does give me a tremendous amount of time, which is why I write books and I start podcasts. And then I also do illustrations on kids' books. 

Lauren: Beautiful illustrations too. They're really magical. I'm going put a link in the show notes.

Monica: I have like Lauren introduced me to everyone. Lauren, I need this bio written. 

Courtney: Can you just talk and just, just say what you're going to say and I'll just email the MP3 to them.

Monica: I'm in for that one. That's another service she can offer.

Courtney: There you go.

Monica: A dark side of it as also justify your existence, justify your space. And like I feel like a lot of my like um, humor, a lot of my, my like overachieve nature is to justify my existence. It's very sing for your supper. 

Lauren: That's such a, it's I got chills and they in part because I'm grateful for you speaking those words out loud, but also because there's a, there's a sadness, right? That comes in when we haven't come to the point where we realized that we're trying to justify our existence and there's this, there's this way that, and we've had this conversation so many times in the chronic illness community, but we can't have it enough, which is your worth is not determined by your productivity. 

Monica: Well now you have a President who's literally telling us we can go ahead and die to reopen economy.

Lauren: Well, and then the question of worth really starts to come up. Like what makes somebody worthy? And what makes somebody, you know, in my opinion, is the fact that you're here on earth, that's all. You're here on earth, you're worthy. And I know Courtney, that's like one of the big themes that you wind up working with in, in your podcast and all of your interviews is, is who I am different now because I have this diagnosis, right? Like, is my soul different? Is my, is my spirit in question? Is there something wrong with me because I have this?

Courtney: Yeah. But there are so many things I want to say on that. So this brings up the fact that I just recently started seeing a therapist, right? And one of the things that came up early actually was that it's possible that I haven't done my own healing in terms of my herpes diagnosis around that. And I mean, it's been eight years, right? So the podcast itself started three years ago. So it's kind of had me really reflecting lately and then having this downtime of not really being able to have so many distractions in front of me being able to look at, Oh, okay, well when I'm talking to different people about their experiences and I'm talking to them and I'm asking them certain questions, am I looking for the answers I need and their experiences. So yeah, that just came up when we were talking about, you know, the, the healing or the spiritual side of it.

Lauren: Honestly, I think you just put words to something that many of us even like in the therapy profession, and I'm sure all of us podcasters working with chronic illness, I think we're going to be living into those answers and that healing for all of time. I don't think there's a beginning, middle, and end when it comes to making sense of our bodies, our illnesses or diagnoses or symptoms or limitations, all of that. Like it's an evolving process. So the fact that you, you've given yourself permission to not have all the answers to me is like the secret doorway into infinity. Like you can, everything is possible from that place like that, you know, you know that phrase, the more I learn, the less I know? And there's a sense of like there's also another quote, um, sell your, sell your, I forget what it is. You know, people are, it's sell your cleverness and purchase and purchase bewilderment or something like that. But it's this idea that, um, we're supposed to have the answers and we're supposed to know, like if you're a podcast host and you're working with STD diagnoses, you're supposed to be the most knowledgeable one. That's the story. Right? And you know, and Monica and I probably both bump up against this too, like I do all the time. I'll have really crummy symptom days and I'll be like, but I have a podcast on this. Why am I having such a hard time? And it's like because I have a body and a soul and a spirit and like, you know, a mind and I'm an evolving human person and absolutely, I selfishly do this podcast to help me with those answers too. Cause everybody I interview has such different awesome wisdom to offer.

Monica: I mean I can't afford therapy so I started a podcast like literally that's what I did. I cannot afford a therapist. Like I will be able to talk about this now.

Lauren: And there's different ways to process therapy’s only one of them. I've been lucky. I got to be on your podcast twice. I know you're here too. Both of you have been here twice. 

Monica: You have an open invitation to my podcasts. You, too, Courtney, I'd love to have you on the podcast.

Courtney: Uh, whenever you want to make this happen.

Monica: Excellent. I will send you a message after this. 

Lauren: But I do want to say that what excited me about this combo is looking through all the past guests and looking for the connections because they want to do as many of these group conversations as possible during the pandemic was that, you know, we are all podcasters and I do want to acknowledge first like there is one person who isn't here that I would love to have here but she can't be because she passed away is uh, Emily Garnette. So she is another chronic illness podcaster who just passed away at the very beginning of quarantine and we're actually going to be doing a tribute episode to her. I wish she was here cause I know she would also just add so much to this conversation but I want to acknowledge that you know, she did pass away, she had stage four cancer but she would be here and I know she would say yes if she was still on this earth with us. So I'll, let's let her be here in spirit. And I know Monica, you've interviewed her as well, but for those of us hosting podcasts to do with illness and the body and all of this, it's a unique role that we have and I'm excited that you're both here and that you're both like that. We all three can talk about this. And um, I'm curious how you're handling the pandemic with your podcast. Like how has that shown up for you as a podcaster? 

Monica: If you've listened to the podcast, you know that I uh… 

Lauren: You can start, this podcast is specifically marked. What's the things explicit? Yeah, it's marked out so that we can talk about anything. 

Monica: Okay. Oh good. I'm so glad I can start.

Courtney: How would they know if you weren’t? Do they listen to every podcast that exists or are they just trusting us to be good citizens?

Monica: So that's the impression because I kept forgot to mark mine as explicit and fucking believe it. I swear all the time, like my kids are like, my kids asked me to swear less. That's how much I swear.

Courtney: I think at this point like explicit would just, I think that they limit things. Um, cause I wasn't able to get on iHeart radio for a while and I think that it was because it was under sexual health or that I had sex in the title of the description. 

Monica: So I interview a sex therapist and we always get marked. Yeah. Yeah. I always get in trouble on YouTube because when I interviewed my sex therapist who's an expert in chronic illness and disability and sex, we always like no one sees it, like some sort of a ghost server.

Courtney: Life hack, replace sex with reproductive wellness. 

Monica: I will do that. I switched over to relationship but and physical relationship and that was my hack. But I will try reproductive wellness next. 

Lauren: Monica, how have you, how has your podcast, how have you and your podcasting journey interacted with a pandemic? Yeah, that's definitely comes up a lot because um, it's just a round, quick, fast thing is I dislocate multiple times a day. So for me, just personally, I have to be like going to physical therapist so I don't end up in an ER. And a lot of the people I interview, we all have like pretty, you know, a lot of us have pretty extreme stuff and it's really changed our health access. So we've been talking a lot about that. About how do you get health access, how do you handle things at home? And then, you know, of course like everything we're all going through, which is anxiety. Um, a lot of talk about pot. So much talk about pot. Um, and uh, that is an alternate for pain and for anxiety when you can't get ahold of your medication. Getting a hold of opioids right now is a nightmare. Um, so I have to be on like triple slip opioids to sit here and talk to you. Like there's no way I could sit up and talk to you without the level of opioids I have to take every day to function and getting a hold of those is really hard. It's hard for my, my guests. I even get personal messages asking me how, how to advise them, which I can't give advice. Um, but like they're desperate and in agony and they are not able to access their medications. There's a lot of talk about THC, which it's great supplement. It is not going to stand up to a dislocation, but it's a good supplement. So we do a lot of talk about that and about how people are coping. But most of us are home, like a lot of us in the chronic illness, disability community, this isn't a huge difference in my life. I mean the only thing different is my teenagers are home all day. Like that's the big difference, which I'm really happy about. Like I love my kids to the moon and back and they're my favorite people to hang out with. Like them and my husband are my favorite humans. So my life didn't change that much. But for a lot of people at home, it's something that they need to talk about. 

Monica: Absolutely. And by the way, when I said that's awesome, I did not mean it's awesome that it's hard to get your medication. But this is, uh, it's so awesome that you're talking about it. Cause I know a lot of people either who've… clients' friends, just people you know, cause I know a lot of people with chronic illness that's like the majority of humans I interact with… and I'm hearing that so much that just getting your medication that you need. I mean that is, it's huge and I'm glad that you're talking about it cause it, I think it can be a real relief to hear people brainstorming and talking about. And if someone who looks like a Disney character soccer mom has trouble getting her medication, it is 50 times harder for everyone else. Like I have trouble, and that should show you how screwed up. And according to that, something that really hit me when I was listening to your podcast, I, I didn't get to listen to all of them, but I did get to listen to you interviewed. And one of the things I loved the most was when you were talking about shame and disability and chronic illness and things that you're dealing with. And like there's this weird thing to be thrown into this world where you have something and there's this weird shame bubble around it. And like I've never hit up against that harder than when the opioid epidemic became like this thing where like the thing you need to take now makes you apparently like drug addict or like all of a sudden you get thrown into a label that you were not ever expecting to or signed up to be in. I was trying to throw that over to you, Courtney. 

Lauren: But Courtney, I mean I think that that is a really important theme that comes up for so many of us and you're somebody who leans into those conversations. So I mean I will reframe the question and say both, you know, Courtney, what, what has it been like for you? Podcasting as you know, a chronic or an illness or health-related podcast or during the pandemic, but also if you want to segue with the shame conversation.

Courtney: We can do that. Well, the quick answer about, you know, the podcasting and the pandemic, all of the interviews that I've done were pretty much right before it started. So I just had next week or like maybe two or three months worth of interviews were already done. Um, there were a few episodes that I kinda like bumped up the priority list, but, um, it's been easier to get with people. I've done more interviews, um, on other people's stuff during the pandemic. And, uh, the consistent theme around it is really just stress management for people avoiding their outbreaks. Some people are finding themselves into that space of depression because like with the herpes diagnosis, there's this challenging of your sexual identity, therefore your actual identity and who you are. And now you're having to, in the process of like rebuilding your emotional, spiritual self. Now you have to deal with the depression of uh, you know, like there's a different kind of a rejection I want to say that comes with it now because it's not like you can even put yourself out there to get the sort of external validation that you need and the acceptance of someone being open to having sex with you despite your diagnosis. Right? So now it's harder to get that. Like we can't get that human contact really. So I'm seeing people privately in private messages, there seems to be sort of like a heightened sense of, not uncertainty, there's probably a better word for it, but I'm just like loneliness, whatever symptoms may come with loneliness, right? So just a little bit of depression. People are just looking to need to be able to relate to people. So much of this time period more so than podcasting, more of what I've been doing is just connecting people to the online communities so that they have safe spaces to be able to share about their status. If they're venting, if they're curious if they're newly diagnosed or just had their first outbreaks or need, needs to learn how to manage it because it made three things that work across the board are nutrition, exercise, movement, and then um, stress management. And so in this time of such stress, it's important to have like outlets. So even if it's like some sort of a hobby, if it's a reading or if it's meditation or if it's just like having a sense of community and the support system around you. So that's how I'm building or how podcasting during the pandemic has been for me. And the other part of that in regards to shame, I forgot what the question was. Um, well I guess like the big thing there, like, so to give people perspective if you may be new. Um, a lot of what is talked about on my podcast is how people are dealing with their diagnosis. And it's so strange that the way that we respond to sex, I mean I don't really consider it to be about the fact that it's herpes. It's not the fact that it's an STI, it's more so about the fact that it's about sex, which is itself so taboo. And then when we break it down a little bit lower than that, it's more of like our relationship to sex and our relationships that revolve around sex and our relationship to ourselves in regard to sex and how we look at this. And that's where we get into the shame piece of it because it's so deep. Like it's so deeply rooted. I been trying to work on this analogy that never seems to come out right, but I look at like there's this, this solar system where when you go inside out, like the sun being the root of all of this, like we look at it as shame. So shame is the focal point. And then as we branch out to what the planets are, the planet service, like different sources of information and then that's where kind of stigma sort of radiates and orbit or whatever. And stars are just like people, the people who are here in space represents sex. That's where we are. Like sex is literally the creation. And yet we have this focal point on the root of the shame, which is what all of this seems to be revolving around. But when you turn your direction out to everything else, it's like, Oh, so sex is actually not a shameful thing. It's not a bad thing. It's just how we're choosing to look at it. And with all of these different sources of misinformation in regards to sexual health and the stigma, it allows for that to continue just given all of the different ways that people are delivered to diagnosis or who aren't being diagnosed, what they're told by healthcare providers, what their um, exchanges are with potential sexual partners and all of that. Like all of these different things are just being mirrored back to us from a place of looking at it like that. Our focal point being shame and not really the acceptance of we're all coming from this space of sex. I will continue to do this if you don't stop me.

Lauren: I love that, you know, and every time I think about shame, I think I also think about the antidote to shame, which is the revealing of self, right? And sharing with others. And whether that's an a one on one private message, like people are sending you or with a therapist or with a friend or with a partner, that that is the beginning of dissipating shame because shame thrives on secrecy. And I just want to acknowledge both of you for living your life the way you do in public, which I always say you don't have to do that. Just because you're dealing with a health issue doesn't mean you have to be like a leader in the field or whatever, but you both kind of are these safe places for people to turn and know that it's okay to struggle. It's okay to have a diagnosis that you can kind of normalize it for people. And it doesn't surprise me that people are reaching out to you at this time to say like, Hey, I'm realizing that I'm struggling or you know, Hey, I'm, I'm dealing with this too. It's so cool. And, and you mentioned on social media the other day, you're like, I went to my first therapy session or something like that and I was like, that is so cool that you're, that you're doing kind of taking us along with you on the journey.

Courtney: Yeah, it's, it's a thing. So he actually, he checked in with me on Saturday. No, not Saturday. It was yesterday. He checked in with me yesterday, sent me a message and was like, Hey, how's it going after our conversation recently? And that ended up turning into like a half a session cause he was like, Hey, can you hop on the phone real quick? And then we were able to talk through some more stuff. Uh, just in preparation for our next actual session by, it's been really helpful because I think that friends offer a perspective, a community offers a perspective. You can be honest with yourself or think that you're being honest with this out and have these moments of reflection but, I don't know, there's just something about having objective view and being able to have reflected back to you not only what you think you're seeing but also not seeing.

Lauren: Mm. Yes. It is nice. And it is like a very dedicated time and space to just focus on yourself. And in any like friendship, you're kind of supposed to both show up for each other. And what's cool about therapy is you really have this time as dedicated and focused on you. And it's important to have that.

Courtney: So many friends will be like, you'll be like, Hey, I'm having this problem. I'm like, Oh that reminds me of the town where I had this problem. Then it gets shifted 

Lauren: And you're like, Oh, I guess I'm not paying you for this. Oh, I wanted to see if the two of you, cause I know you've listened to each other's episodes and I wanted to see if either of you have questions for each other based on like what you know of, of each other.

Courtney: Well, I mean Monica, when I heard something you said, put it into perspective. I listen to the most recent episode that you had done together. Something along the lines of adaptability, how you had so many different professions and you just like, you kind of had to do was you had to do really, and that really spoke to me because um, some people get to do things and other people have to do things if and what I'm saying that makes sense.

Monica: It really does. Wish I had a better answer. I've been sick since I was eight, so I have never had an idea of permanence in my abilities. So I think you make a really great point for anyone who's like more recently diagnosed on like, you get to make a choice on can I or should I or do I want to or do I have to? And I'm almost all my decisions have been made by do I have to because I never like… I was a ballerina and I knew that wasn't gonna be forever. So do it as hard as you can, you're not going to anywhere. And then I was jeweler and I did that for a really long time that I loved it and then my hands couldn't work anymore. So I was like, okay, what's the next job I can do that don't require so much strenuous handwork. But I, and Lauren and I talked about this as, I think the key to it is finding your core. Like what are you at your absolute fucking core? And my core is storyteller. I love telling stories and that can be in a billion different ways. And once I stopped limiting it, like at first it was my body that told the story with dance and then it was, Oh, I can make these little cute objects. I'm so sorry. My dogs are nuts and there's nothing I can do about it. I have a 95 pound like Wolf dog and he is always like, he's my big bad protector. I heard like a chicken and the dog at the same time. We have such like we live in the suburbs, but we've got a farm, I've got like chickens, I've got dogs, I've got cats. Like it's, a zoo here. So my apologies. Um, so I'm sorry, I'm just trying say is like I tried these different ways of telling stories and my body kept failing, but I kept learning from how it was telling different stories. Like if you're a jeweler and you're like making these little sculptures, you're learning different ways to tell a story that you can then bring into writing. Or I brought that into photography and I was a photographer for years and then my hands started to fail at that. And that's where I was really, I was so clumsy and I'm so sorry, but like shame is such a big thing in my life. And that's the thing that I wanted to definitely like talk to you or have a panel with you because I think it's a huge topic and I really want to talk to you about shame and chronic illness and disability and like I think that that really like we have a saying in our house that shame belongs to the cruel and that's the only place where you should feel shame is if you're trying to be cruel and then need to learn from that. And it's still such a huge part of my life. Like I can say wise things, but like Alice in Wonderland, I give myself really good advice. I just don't take it and like shame has shaped so much of my existence and I want to talk to you about that. But as far as you're asking me a question, the long way round was find your core and find a way to do that core. Like it sounds like you're really good at like figuring out what people need. Like it sounds like you are so hyper aware of like what's missing and through your own experiences you saw what was desperately missing and you were able to build something really beautiful around what you needed and that sounds like a really big core for you. Like, like just a really kind person who is able to see what's needed and do it.

Courtney: I appreciate that. Um, I didn't get to ask the question though. Can I ask the question?

Monica: I'm sorry. Yes.

Courtney: Like I was getting, I guess that wasn't quite sure, but like the, it was a much bigger question of like one thing that we talk about often on something positive for positive people is rejection. And it seems like in your body you experience consistent rejection from your body or in your body because it's not been able to do like you would need it to do something and it tells you no or there’ve been moments now where you're like, I guess you've gotten to the point where you've sort of surrendered to it. You know what your body needs and you give your body what it needs.

Monica: Oh, that's cute. Bless your heart. No. The answer to the question is no.

Courtney: So the, the, I guess the way I want to ask this question is for someone who rejection tends to be so external on a regular basis, I think there's a lot to take away from you having an actual like internal rejection between you, your will, your desires, and then your body.

Monica: Okay. First off, you need to warn a girl to wear waterproof mascara before you ask a question like that. Which one of you is the therapist again? I signed up for like a light-hearted shit, some examination. Lighthearted. 

Lauren: Monica, the alternate question is what is your favorite color.

Monica: Nice way to bring it back to some Monty Python there. 

Lauren: It's so funny cause I'm so unfamiliar. But um, I'm glad to hear that it was a connection with you. 

Monica: You just like totally lost the nerd crowd there. Um, Jesus Christ, rejection dammit. I'm really good at skating over serious things about myself. 

Courtney: Not in this house. Not in this room. 

Monica: Um, yeah, actually that hit a little close. 

Courtney: Um, so this is also something you can think about and we can talk…

Monica: tell you to fuck off? [laughter] Uh, no. So I've gotten significantly worse than the last year. So that's been actually a really big thing that you brought up is I've almost quit the podcast a whole bunch of times because I'm not healthy enough for it. Um, so Eva actually came in to save the podcast, my cohost, she came in to save it because I was close to shutting it down. So, yeah, I think if you want to get really, really fucking deep, um, the fear of rejection drives everything for me because emotional, physical, personal rejection, like all of it avoiding it is my thing run as fast and as hard away from it. I actually had a therapist back when I could afford one, say I was the highest functioning depressive he had ever met. Like you are really good at running away from bad things. Um, which is really funny cause I’m in a wheelchair. So running is obviously not my thing. But um, uh, yeah, that's been really hard. Is like knowing when to quit because I don't know, like I don't know if you learn if like, I know that for you Courtney, you're not dealing with like the mobility issues. I'm assuming as much as, as maybe I have, I don't know if Lauren, you've hit the point where you're needing mobility aids or things just have to stop. 

Lauren: I like briefly have used a cane, but right now I'm not using one. 

Monica: Yeah. All right. For all y'all out there who are using canes and wheelchairs. There's a really rare thing that there's no dividing line. Like when you're growing up and you see disability, like, Oh, a big thing happens and then a doctor tells you you're done walking and that's not true. I had to and it was the worst thing to have to do is go, I can't walk. I can't, I can't do this anymore. Even though they're actually like, well, you're able to, and then you're like, no, I really can't. It's so painful. I can not step down because my, um, so my bones, I have other stainless frames… Um, I have really severe, like when I stepped down, the surgeon was like, so what happens is as your entire bones in your foot dislocate every step and then they relocate on the up and then they dislocate on the down. Um, so if you can imagine how painful that is with every step, that's what's going on. But a doctor doesn't you down usually and say he needed a wheelchair. So you actually have to like say, okay my body has rejected walking in prolonged periods of time, I'm going to have to make this choice for myself. And that's really hard to make those choices like to even like just reject what you thought was your, your mobility, your way of moving through the world. I don't know if that answers your question but it is really true for everything I've ever done is like, okay I'm getting to this point where I have to reject my previous life. And I was really lucky that the ballet thing ended early because it was everything I was, I would wake up like I seriously woke up at four every morning to practice at the bar in my room. I'd go to high school, I would come home I had so many point shoes, I would, cause I broke the shanks all the time and I would go dance at the studio and I would come home and I'd do my down and then I would go to sleep and get up and do it all over again. So it's everything of who I was was a ballerina. And then it stopped when I was 16 and it was like I have to redefine who I am. Like if everything you are is defining like what you can do that gets really crunchy and that it gets really hard. I don't know if that answers your question. I'm so sorry. It's the best I could do.

Courtney: Oh no. It inspired more questions. This is Lauren's podcast so we'll …

Lauren: No, no go for it.

Courtney: Going back to I guess feeling rejected by your body for what you want to do and then I would like to be able to take, cause there's something there that people can take from this lesson. Like your life, your storytelling ability. You are a walking story of constant rejection.

Monica: I say I am walking like sculpture, like a walking really bad surreal sculpture is what I use.

Courtney: But like how we viewed it rejection on one level versus the intensity of how you feel it and that's in your body and in day to day stuff, like not being heard for what your pain is. Not being able to go to a theater or experienced the arts like the, I want to be able to sort of just show people like we take things for granted, you know, in fear of rejection or like how rejection actually looks versus how we perceive it in our mind or different ways of that. So there's, there are things in there that can flush out from a conversation, a very long detailed conversation. If you're up for it.

Monica: I, I would, I would be up for it. I hope I could give you the answers. You're looking, you're making me sound way more wise than I am, which is, I mean I can tell you I've had relationships end because I was too sick. I was with a woman I was desperately in love with. We were living together for a long time and she, we were young and she was like, I can't do this. And that was, that was heartbreaking. That was really hard. But yeah, I guess like, in the chronic illness world. We deal with rejection pretty well. Like our bodies aren’t doing what it's supposed to. That's kind of the definition right there. And they don't do what they're supposed to possibly forever. And then those around us, we make them uncomfortable all the time.

Lauren: I want to chime in here and say that the way that I think isms work, meaning like ableism, racism, classism, sexism is, we often as a culture will say, Oh that person was picked on because of their illness or that person was picked on because of their race or because of their gender. And it takes the focus off of the picker honor, if that makes them. It's like that person was attacked because the attacker was racist or because the attacker was sexist or the attacker was abelist. Right. Versus saying it's because of who you are and your identity that you got attacked. So I just want to provide this other way of looking at it and say, I don't know that you make anyone feel anything. I think, you know, we have our own experiences and while one person might be super comfortable with experiencing any of us, another person might be really triggered by it and that that doesn't mean that we're a quote triggering or non triggering person. Right.

Monica: That's a great point. I will say though that like I present as pretty, like if you looked at me, you would have like, I'm sure neither of you know that I've dislocated three times those conversation. I was like rolling my shoulder back and like, yeah, but like people don't notice it. And I worked as a photographer for 10 years and I hit it as well as I could while I could. And it made all the people in my life, when I was a photographer, I was like, that's where all my friends were. All my friends were, um, were business owners. So they did a lot of headshots and I worked for Silicon Valley companies, so no one knew. And when I got so sick or couldn't continue a terrified everyone around me because they were like, that could be me. I mean like I was only 35 when I had to quit working. Like that's pretty young to have to retire. And especially from a really like high level career to have to stop. And like everyone was like, fuck that happened to me. Oh my God. Like you know, it was, it really like made. That's where the great Exodus came from was like, almost everyone in my life in that world were like, that's terrifying. And that was, that was a lot of rejection. That was really hard because I got so much, um, so much value. I got so many ear scratches for being a photographer. Like, you're so talented. You're so great. We love what you do. And I got to be a part of like in the portrait world, I got to be part of people's stories and the noir world. I got to show women, um, or I'm sorry, people with ovaries, I got to show them like as that was all my clientele was like people are trying to rediscover they’re beautiful and I got to show them what I saw was beautiful in them and that was really powerful. And then I got to work with companies on respectful marketing to people with ovaries, like please stop showing us in lounging on cars, please stop telling us to hate ourselves. Just those beauty products. Like I got to work in that world and it was so much validation and then too, not just have to hand over all of that, but to be rejected by all the people I worked with was really hard.

Lauren: I want to say that I'm noticing a theme between the two of you and your questions and topics for each other as they, they remind me of each other, which is rejection and shame because the thing I see as like an overlap between the two is the difference between what I do and who I am. And I think of rejection as like, Oh, I can not do a thing. And does that mean that who I am is being rejected or just that that activity is not possible? Right. And I think that's what rejection is, is when I feel like who I am in my essence is being rejected, almost like what you would call the core Monica. It's like, am I not able to express my core? And that's what can feel like rejection and similarly with shame, the difference between shame and guilt. Like guilt is, Oh, I did a thing that wasn't great versus I am a thing that's not great. And knowing that who I am isn't dependent on all those things, right? Like maybe my spirit is so much bigger than any one thing that I've done or any one element about me. So I just love this topic. I'm going to call it one topic. 

Monica: Um, but that's brave of you. 

Lauren: Yeah. And the other thing I want to reflect on is that Courtney, when you were asking this question to Monica about rejection, I thought, wow, I don't know that I ever would have framed it that way. Cause I think I always fear I'll be telling somebody else's story through a lens of like being an outsider and saying, Oh, you must feel rejected. But in fact, Courtney, I think you were really sensitive in asking that question because you know, Monica from her interview and you've sensed into what her experiences and you're able to ask this question that I never would have thought to ask. And it like brought up so much for you, Monica. Like I wonder if you, am I right here that like Courtney was really seeing you?

Monica: I am such a snarky bitch. I hate that. Yes, I do a lot of deflection to avoid that. 

Courtney: What you are seeing is a gift and a curse. Some people welcome it. Some people there. Give me the fuck outta here. 

Monica: Yeah, that's, that's definitely one of your abilities, Courtney. It's a beautiful thing. I, I think if you ever wanted to, you could, uh, work with Lauren on your next steps to becoming a therapist. I think you'd be an awesome therapist. I think you'd be a very needed voice in the therapy world when we get into certification. It’s just a thousand hours. 

Lauren: Now it's 3000 but it's after you're done with your, yeah. Anyway, there are a lot of ways. I mean I would just second what Monica said that Courtney, I think you would be an incredible therapist. So we'll just make this the public place that you can reference us when you become a therapist. 

Monica: Yeah, I'll take credit too. Yeah. 

Lauren: So Courtney, this is an invitation to you to just become a therapist. So just you know, anytime on behalf of all therapists everywhere, please, please join us. And, and Monica, like you've said, there are so many ways to like podcasting is a big, is actually very therapeutic in many ways for the podcast or for the people who are the guests and for the listeners. So Courtney, in a way you're already doing, you're doing your gifts and so are you Monica. By holding space for people and showing up as yourself and this, this conversation has been so awesome. Obviously we could probably go on for a really long time. So I'll just finish with, with asking. Are there any insights that you want to share from this time in quarantine or from our conversation today? Any last thing that you want people to know? 

Monica: Oh, I went first, last time.

Courtney: I think uh, being alone can be scary. Being around the same people all the time, all day, every day can be draining. The biggest, most useful thing consistently across the board, not just for myself but other people that I've talked to has been really having a routine, being able to consistently have something that you can commit to and that that's a stable or a staple. One of those words, the B or the P, whichever one goes there. Um, in your day to day routine. I mean the only reason I know that it's Sundays because Chick-fil-A is closed and I'm like craving a chicken sandwich or something. Like that's it.

Monica: Are they as good as everyone says? I have never had one.

Courtney: Go somewhere else. So you try go different places go different places cause like I think the thing about that is just that it's fast food but it doesn't feel like fast food, if that makes sense. It's, it's crazy. But I don't want to say like, um, like weekends, weekdays they all run together. It doesn't really mean anything right now. So it's important to not necessarily differentiate but maybe like, okay this day or one day on, one day off as a routine of different things. So if you meditate, if you're someone who's into that, you can meditate one day on, you can read one day off. So like just kind of alternate between the day and as far as like movement and exercise goes. Maybe a little bit of yoga, maybe a little bit of walking just to have something that you can look forward to in each day that you're able to be consistent with. Um, it can be something as simple as just getting on a mat and sitting there or it can be just putting your shoes on and stepping outside and looking up and going, you know what, not today, but just making an act to take like the first step of some kind of a routine. That's been really to me because when it first started I just drank every day. 

Lauren: That's a routine. That's another routine. But what you're saying is you come to a place where you wanted to consciously implement little spots of joy or fulfillment throughout your week that you can look forward to. Yeah.

Courtney: And then before you know it, like 10 weeks go by and you know you've got a new, you read a few books, you've learned a few new people to follow on YouTube for stuff. And yeah, you learn some fun facts about eggs as well.

Lauren: How about for you Monica? 

Monica: Can I just quickly expand on what Corey just said? Because what you said was so important, and I just have two tools for everyone to use to do that because like routine is like, I mean, I've been doing the quarantine life for a lot longer. It's so important. I cannot begin to express how important it is to have a routine. Even if like they call it a ladder, even if you get the first foot up on the ladder, like if your routine is, I brushed my teeth like even if you think you can't do anything, if you're like, but I could do that. And then you just like do that and maybe just maybe you might be able to get to the next step. But if you don't even try the first step, you'll never get to that next step. So I found routine to be everything. And there's two apps and they both have free options and one's called Fabulous. And that's one of my favorite apps ever on how to build a routine because it's really hard when you're in pain or like emotional pain or physical pain to remember to do things. And it's a beautiful app. I love it. I also use Plany. Um, so those two have free options. And then when you're talking about exercise, my favorite app ever is the Nike training app and it's all free right now. And um, most of their workouts are free, but they're all exactly what my, um, my physical therapist assigns me and they're all right there and they show you how to do it. And the best part of it is like you can like have music going while they're doing it and um, it times it, so you don't have to keep a timer open. Like it's really hard for me to like look at a timer while I'm like doing like bird dog or bridges or something and um, it's all free and it's a really easy, easy way to be able to incorporate like small amounts of exercise. Like they have five minute or 10 minute exercises to do. So I just want to explain it cause it was such a great, great suggestion there, Courtney.

Courtney: Thank you for it. Thank you for sharing those.

Lauren: Awesome. And also my partner uses that Nike app. It is, they give you visuals, they have auditory instruction and you could turn off that auditory instruction. That drives me nuts. I don't like being told what to do. So I was like, just tell me when it starts. Tell me when it stops. Give me the time. I just need to know what stops the good distinction, which is why I suck at meditating so bad. Um, but uh, if you wanted like my advice for right now, I just wanted it to do like my tagline when I sign off. Cause I think it's so true for everything and that's to be kind. And that includes to yourself and that includes to others. Even when you feel like you can't be, um, like that radical compassion. I just finished reading Trevor Noah's book, which rocked my universe and I just watched, uh, the Mr. Rogers documentary and radical kindness is like kind of become something I'm working really hard on and then be gentle. And that obviously goes back to compassion and I think it's really important to yourself right now. Like if day drinking is what you can hang with, you know, that's, that's what you can do. And you have to be really gentle with yourself. Maybe you're not going to write the great American novel right now. Maybe you're not going to go on to Duolingo and learn a new language. And if whatever you need to do to just emotionally, mentally survive, give yourself that permission to set the bar where it needs to be for right now, for the next two minutes, for the next five minutes, for the next week, set it where it has to be and um, be a badass in whatever way that looks like to you in whatever way that is. Because sometimes our body confines and our social confines are not something that we can go out and lead the March. Um, so whatever being a badass looks like to you, go do that.

Lauren: Hmm. I love that. And, and this has been so enlivening for me and I appreciate, um, talking to both of you. I love that permission you just gave everyone to just do it at your own pace in your own way. But you can have your own ladder.

Monica: I love that. They're like on Twitter someone goes like, I don't know who needs to hear this, but you're awesome. And I'm like, yes I am. Thank you. I needed that. I needed it. Yeah.

Lauren: I want to give a shout out to the folks who've been tuned in on the podcast cafe cause we've been recording live. This is our first live recording.

Courtney: Oh this was live. I forgot. Actually forgot.

Lauren: And I want to thank the folks who've been watching. Julianne says yes, two of my favorite podcasts in one place. Um, Hannah says sending virtual hugs from the UK. Carol says that matters. Chronic illness is already super expensive. Yeah. And Hannah says, what a lovely surprise to see the podcast be recorded. So yeah, you never know if you're part of the podcast cafe, something cool might happen, like a live recording and you can tune in and be a part of it. And then also you get to see the difference between the live recording and then the later, cause we edit the episodes, we put music in, you know, it's just a different thing. So it's sort of like two different episodes in a way. Uh, but I want to thank you both for being a part of this and taking time to come together and connect in public and just be you.

Monica: Thank you for introducing me to Courtney. I'm so excited to meet Courtney.

Lauren: You're both pretty cool.