Episode 48: Releasing Perfectionism
Guest: Lily Sloane
Lauren: Thank you for doing this podcast episode with me.
Lily: So excited.
L: You are the music editor for the podcast.
Lily: I am.
L: And you're also, you.
Lily: I'm also me.
L: So you've, you have your own health journey and I'm really excited that you get to sit with me and that you're willing to share about it in public.
Lily: Yeah. It's funny when you say that I'm like, huh. I feel like what I've been learning is that everybody, almost everybody has a health journey.
L: Yeah. As it turns out, I think that's very true.
Lily: Yeah.
L: So w will you tell me yours?
Lily: Yes. Um, so trying to be concise cause I'm somebody who makes everything really like complicated and spiraling and like…
L: Well maybe you should storyteller.
Lily: Well, I don't know. I'm like, here is my health journey in the multiverse.
L: It's cause we're complex beings. So that makes sense.
Lily: And we think pretty psychologically.
L: That's true. Because you're a therapist.
Lily: Yeah. Yeah. So I would say that the primary thing that I think of when I think about myself having a chronic health challenge is, um, a bladder issue that I am just calling a bladder issue these days. I went through the, the whole journey of, from, from what, what the hell is this? To, oh, I found something that sounds like the right diagnosis.
L: Mmhmm.
Lily: To, I don't even know anymore.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And so yeah, starting when I was in college, uh, when I was around 19 was when the bladder condition really took off. There's a number of factors. There's, that may have played a role, but even that I'm like, yeah, shruggy arm's emoji about it at this point. Um, but I was having a lot of frequency and urgency with urination, like just like overactive bladder kind of thing and a lot of it keeping me up at night and you know, getting up to pee many times a night and it progressively got worse over the years. And, and it flares up at times. When I was, um, in my twenties. It also turned into like... A kind of irregular. Drip, drip, like faucet kind of thing.
L: Mmhmm.
Lily: Which means now I wear panty liners all the time.
L: All day, every day.
Lily: All day, every day. And so there's...that's the part that curious the most shame.
L: Mmm.
Lily: And like, do I want to share that with people kind of thing.
L: Right.
Lily: You know, and where the frequency is a little more like, ha ha, I'm an old lady.
L: Right. Yeah. Like that's the tone of how to share it.
Lily: Totally. But...You know, over the years I tried so many different approaches, different medications, different, you know, Western approaches, different non traditional approaches, acupuncture, herbs. Um, working with a naturopathic doctor, just everything...so much, so much money, so much time and energy.
L: Oh my gosh, so much energy.
Lily: And like as a grad student and an intern, you know, training to be a therapist, having no money and bad health insurance. And when I was 30, I finally, I had gotten the diagnosis of interstitial cystitis because I had found that on the internet.
L: Mmhmm.
Lily: In my late twenties, and by the time I was 30, I decided to, um, try a surgery called InterStim.
L: Hmm.
Lily: Where they actually put a wire in your lower back towards a certain nerve and it's supposed to correct the, uh, brain bladder connection.
L: Wow.
Lily: So they're thinking maybe it's kind of neurological behavioral kind of combo of things. And then there's a device that would be under your skin, kind of like a pacemaker.
L: Wow.
Lily: But for your bladder and, um, so you get the device and you, you wear this box externally for a week with a wire. Yeah, I was a bionic woman.
L: Wow.
Lily: And then, you know, they make adjustments and see if it works. And if it works, then they, they put a smaller device permanently under your skin.
L: I'm glad they test first.
Lily: Yeah. It didn't work.
L: It didn't work?
Lily: It didn't work.
L: Oh, how was that for you when it didn't work?
Lily: Um, it was really disappointing. It was the week I turned 30, too.
L: Oh gosh.
Lily: It was my 30th birthday. Yeah. It was really disappointing. But I was on a lot of drugs. So also having a chill time.
L: Yeah.
Lily: Yeah, yeah. And since then, since we're kind of doing the briefer description right now, since then, you know, there's been a lot of grief, but my focus has been more on working on it in therapy.
L: Oh, you mean like psychological therapy?
Lily: Yeah, like psychological therapy, not working on it from the perspective of trying to fix whatever the medical issue is. That's not even really that clear.
L: Mmhmm.
Lily: I've had catheters and cameras and all kinds of things up in my bladder.
L: Oh my gosh.
Lily: It's not, it's not fun.
L: Yeah.
Lily: So my, my health journey right now is around living with it and not knowing what it is.
L: Yeah. There's like a, as you'd say that part, I just feel like a, a little heartache.
Lily: As you say that you feel a heartache about hearing that. I'm like that that reflection just kinda like brings me back into it in a way that I think a lot of the time I'm just sort of keeping it at bay.
L: Totally.
Lily: Yeah.
L: And that makes sense.
Lily: But I'm tearing up right now. Yeah, thanks a lot Lauren.
L: Well, yeah, it's like sometimes I don't think as much about this stuff. And then I have those little moments like you're describing right now and I'm like, oh, crap. This is like a real thing.
Lily: Yeah.
L: This is an actual thing I'm carrying.
Lily: Yeah. And I think along with that, the bigger challenge is all the stories that come with it. And so even most, you know, I can point to this bladder thing as this kind of primary piece. Um. It's not the only thing and there's been so many things and I just haven't felt like I was somebody who benefited from, from help. Like, like so frequently going to the doctor for various ailments and aches and pains. And I think, I think I do carry a lot in my body and somaticize a lot of emotion, but so frequently getting, well we did all the tests and there's nothing wrong with you. So it's probably stress, which is, you know, they say stress because what they really should say is we don't know.
L: Yeah.
Lily: We don't know. Sometimes it can be stress or stress is always there. Stress can always be a factor, can exacerbate things. I know it exacerbates the bladder issue, but also great. Now what?
L: Right.
Lily: What am I supposed to do with that non information?
L: Yeah.
Lily: Surprise, surprise. I'm stressed.
L: Right. That’s a common thing that people are told that it's stress.
Lily: Yeah. A friend of mine just, just went through that and, and it was about something where it's like how on earth could that particular symptom be about stress? It was so specific and I'm like, why can't they just say we don't know?
L: Yeah.
Lily: I'm sorry. We don't know. I believe you, but we're going to have to keep looking into it. We might not have the ability to find out right now...and that's really hard to sit with, but it's, but it's easier than sitting with there’s something that I'm doing wrong.
L: Yeah. And I like that very simple wish.
Lily: Yeah.
L: Can you just say, I don't know. Cause there's something in I don't know, that's actually very validating. It's super valued too. Cause I don't know either. Like I’ve been waiting for somebody else to say this for, you know, I think some people do hear that and that can be invalidating in other ways, but, but to have the acknowledgement instead of pretending like it's this thing.
Lily: Yeah. It would make me trust my provider a lot more.
L: Yeah.
Lily: I think that people in these positions, I think as therapist, this can come up too, but we can be in this position of feeling like we need to have answers for people.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And when we can't, it's a human response that I think is, um, perpetuated by the systems that we're living in, is to not be able to be comfortable with saying, I don't know, with not being comfortable, not having the answers. And so, but it ends up leaving me as a patient feeling very, very discouraged and just left to fill in the blanks with a bunch of self blame and magical thinking.
L: Mmm.
Lily: Like weaving these narratives that are totally a religion of their own.
L: Yeah.
Lily: Oh, I'm not religious. I didn't grow up with much religion, but it's really fun in these moments to be like, Oh, well therefore god is punishing me. Or the universe is punishing me, I've done something bad to deserve that.
L: Yeah.
Lily: I saw you post something on Facebook just um, today.
L: Yeah, this morning.
Lily: This morning and I read it and I was so grateful for what you said you were saying, but you know, that particular idea, this kind of...these spiritual ideas that might, you know, aim to explain physical illness through, through a lens of spiritual failings can be so damaging.
L: I haven't even mentioned that part, but that's a really good point.
Lily: Oh, well that's what I, yeah, that's kind of what I wanted to do with it.
L: No, but I'm glad that it spoke to you. I could see, yeah, I could totally see how it could be seen as like this. Basically. Maybe I should just read the thing.
Lily: I would love you to. Just read your Facebook posts. That was brilliant.
L: I was reading the blog of my dear friend Emily, who was on the podcast in season one. Who has been managing really just, I'm sorry to give it meaning, but just bad news, just a lot of bad news about her metastatic cancer and just feeling so much heartache around it. And then feeling really angry that sometimes, yeah, people are ever blamed for their own illness. Not that she wrote about that or anything.
Lily: But it brought up that, yeah, that comes up a lot.
L: It does. So here's what I said. I said, I know that there are many ways of thinking about the mind/body connection, different beliefs work for different people. I support the way of making sense of your body that feels right to you. All of that said, I want to be clear about my personal beliefs, especially since my career is dedicated to caring about and uplifting folks who have challenges with our bodies. I do not believe you have illness, injury, or disease due to a spiritual or personal deficiency within you. I have known so many peaceful, radiant, empowered people living with illness. The idea that it's a personal failure that's led to such diagnoses just doesn't work for me. It's so important to me that you know your illness is not your fault. And yes, I also believe that spiritual and personal growth positively impacts the body. There's no doubt in my mind that thinking, freeing thoughts and taking loving approaches to life absolutely impacts every aspect of our existence. So keep doing what feels right for you. I support you. Heart emoji.
Lily: Gotta have that heart emoji. I wouldn't have known that you were speaking words of love without that heart emoji.
L: Right? Yeah. Just to let you know, this is the tone that I'm writing this in is the little heart, the little red heart.
Lily: Oh, I mean, I just found that so supportive because I can think, I think a lot of, a big piece of my journey is, like I said, I don't have a religious upbringing in, in a traditional, but I do in the sense that my family was macrobiotic when I was growing up and I consider myself having grown up in like a culture like dogmatic religion.
L: Hmm.
Lily: And along with that, that I've seen in my, my experiences growing up in the Bay area, going to school at a California Institute of integral studies where you went as well that in this world of spiritual and physical kind of like health focus, you can find a lot of dogma that to me is just as damaging as, as the way that religions talk about sin and you know, moral failings. That it can feel it. There can be this like perfectionism around health.
L: Hm.
Lily: And I think our, our capitalist society has really gone off the rails with that too. And Silicon Valley and looking at, yeah. All the clean eating and the cleanses and that, this and that, that, and it's so, it's just like this really desperate attempt to control.
L: Mmm.
Lily: And to feel like we have some sense of ability to explain why bad things sometimes happen. And it's really easy to build up narratives that are around like, I'm bad or that person's bad. And that's why.
L: Yeah.
Lily: Because wouldn't that make so much more sense? Wouldn't that be more tolerable? Even though it's really painful to hate myself. It's a narrative that makes sense.
L:Yeah. Well, it reminds me of how children, when we're mistreated by adults, it's hard for us psychologically to attribute any negative qualities to our caregivers. So we wind up internalizing it.
Lily: Yeah.
L: And as adults, there's that similar sense I think for a lot of folks that God is that caregiver.
Lily: Yeah.
L: Right. So it's like, so there's something that can feel really scary about believing that God would let anything bad happen to us because God is supposed to hold all these qualities that are wonderful and beautiful. So it's like trying to make sense of, well I must have done something. Then if we transpose that same dynamic from childhood with caregivers onto adults or I guess anybody with God.
Lily: Yeah.
L: Cause everybody, I mean everybody has different relationships with God, but I think that's just a really common one that I see. And it makes a lot of sense because there's something in me that wants to tell a story about, well maybe if I hadn’t an X, Y, and Z I wouldn't have had this thing. And I just don't think it's that clever.
Lily: I know.
L: I think it'll, I think it's a little bit, there's something almost peaceful about the fact that it isn't specific to me.
Lily: Yeah.
L: You know, I really just, I don't believe in my bones that I did something or that you did something to deserve this.
Lily: No way. No way. I mean, I do believe it on some levels, on some very vulnerable levels. My inner critic loves to tell me that story, but most of my work, like I said, focusing on acceptance and therapy, it's not around focusing on getting super positive about it or coming up with a narrative that explains it. Like everything happens for a reason. It's more like how can I live with what is and let go of the the need to tell stories and be present with it and, and have some acceptance that like bodies are hard, bodies are not totally reliable. Taking care of our bodies perfectly, whatever that even means is really hard and it's okay that we don't do it all the time. And just like trying to, trying to really like loosen the tight grip of perfection and need to control.
L: Mmm.
Lily: So if, if, if there's any positives for me on any of this stuff, it's, it's that it really forces that learning. I don't think anyone should have to learn these lessons.
L: Yeah. It'd be nice if we didn't have to.
Lily: Or that we could learn them in like a nicer way. Like maybe never have to like, get perfectionistic and controlling in the first place because our worlds were maybe a little bit scary when we were little or whatever it is. But that is the the work. That to me is really the work. You know, if, if like a new medical treatment comes along or a new potential diagnosis comes along, I'll probably check it out if I'm in the mood.
*Laughter*
L: I love that.
Lily: If I've taken a long enough break. But really the work is around how do I, how do I hold myself through all of this?
L: Yes. And I'm so eager to find out whatever you'd like to share about the insights you've gained through your work in therapy, talking about your body and your experience with your body.
Lily: Yeah man. So I mean the other part of my, my health journey is also having a history. And this also relates I think to stuff from, from childhood, but a history with um, really, really poor body image and uh, eating disorder or disordered eating kinds of behaviors in my twenties kind of obsessing about trying to look a certain way and failing because it's kind of impossible cause again, okay, all these things get put on us as personal feelings that aren't. This is my body. So again, I’m trying to accept what, what my body is even if it isn't the same thing all the time.
So as a therapist I work with eating disorders and disordered eating and body image and I also see people who have other kinds of health conditions. And you can see those two things overlap a lot too because especially if you have health conditions and you know, digestive issues, like all those things can trigger eating disorders.
L: Hmm.
Lily: Or can also a trigger what what we call uh, orthorexia which is this eating disorder that's not so much about I'm scared I'm going to gain weight if I eat anything but more like, I'm terrified of toxins coming into my body. So all the overly obsessing about everything being perfectly clean and it can, it can become on that level of disorder. And so I've seen myself go through, you know, both the fear about body image but also fear about internal health and around eating and exercise and all of that. And so working with people around this stuff has really helped me, I think really grow my capacity for patients with where people are. Because sometimes, I’ll really want to get people on board with, for instance, rejecting dieting or with, um, with being more accepting and not trying so hard and spending so much time and money on this and that treatment. And, and realizing that that's just not where everyone is in their process and maybe not yet never will be. And, and a lot of my pushing people in the past or feeling judgemental has come from my own insecurities around that and really wanting validation for myself around not around, not having to push myself so hard.
L: Hmm.
Lily: Like I want to live in a world where we don't have to push ourselves so hard.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And it's painful to see people in it, in that place. The frantic place of trying to fix.
L: Yeah. I think for so many of us there's that part, like you were talking about the inner critic.
Lily: Yeah.
L: That wants us to try harder in a certain direction that's not actually going to feed our souls.
Lily: Yeah, totally. I mean, I, I mentioned the shruggy arms emoji earlier. I feel like that's my, my place in life at the moment. And my religion is just kind of like the more I work on myself, the more I've worked with, with clients as a therapist, the more work I've done as a, you know, storyteller and podcast producer, the more I'm just like, I don't know.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And, and that's actually a place that at first seems terrifying and can become comforting.
L: It’s just like what you're wishing for the doctors to say to you, I don't know, because there is a comfort in that.
Lily: Exactly. I don't know. And we don't have to be alone.
L: Yes. Little chills. Cause the, the not knowing is so, so human, right. I'm not sure we're supposed to know it all.
Lily: I mean that would be a really, we're already struggling with all the information we have access to right now. That's too much information.
L: So the question that I was thinking just before about therapy, I realized you gave some great examples of yourself as a therapist. I loved hearing about that cause I guess I didn't really realize about that specialty of yours, working with this disordered eating and how it connects to your past. And then my curiosity originally was what's it been like for you as a client?
Lily: Oh right.
L: Talking about your body and your specifically, you know, the stuff that you're sharing with us today about, okay, wow, my medical journey is more about learning how to live with this.
Lily: Yeah. Yeah. That's translated to a lot of other things in my life. Other things that I've emotionally been fixated on in the past, whether it's um, you know, rejection or uh, unrequited love. Like I've, I've kind of, that's kind of felt like an analogy for me at times. Like, the unrequited love situation feels like a chronic health issue I have to live with.
L: It's like, it's like a heart condition, but it's a heart condition of the spirit.
Lily: Right.
L: The physical heart.
Lily: The heart shaped heart, not the anatomical heart.
L: Right.
Lily: Yeah. And, and so I think you know what, whatever it is in my life, I've been so driven since I was young to fix things, and to fix myself, to fix other people, fix my relationships, to fix the world and I don't want to go the other way and be like, none of, none of that matters. Nothing's fixable. I'm going to just sit here and meditate like that. That doesn't feel useful either. That feels like a bypassing, but that there's so much to sitting in, in discomfort and growing my capacity for that and growing my capacity to accept where I am and not constantly be berating myself for being where I am instead of where I'd like to be or where someone else might think I should be. Whether it's around like getting over something emotional, whether it's around feeling up for new treatments or you know, new approaches or new exercise routine. Really, really trying to make space for the resistance and the apathy and all of it. So I think my personal therapy has been a lot of that. And it's been interesting to notice with the therapists I've been with, um, the last four years I’ve had a lot of therapists. Um, right. We've been together a long time and I went to her because she is a somatic therapist and I knew that this was the next step for me was how do I, how do I work with the body stuff and the emotional stuff together but not to try to fix the bladder issue for instance, but to try to help support myself through it and she's so good at slowing me down. I talk a lot. She's so frustratingly good at pausing me and forcing me to kind of stay with um, sensation in the moment, try to break down like a micro thing into some things, you know, like more like to digest more of what's happening from moment to moment. And it is really frustrating sometimes and it's the first time I've had a therapy though where I also built up the safety and trust that I can show her all of my resistance and petulance and like, because I've always been a good client, like I've always wanted to please. I've always, if a therapist asked me a question, I come up with an answer without necessarily pausing to be like, is that actually true for me? Is that actually what I feel right now or am I just answering what sounds like a good self-aware person might say yes because I, because I know what that looks like. You know?
L: Yeah
Lily: Now if she asked me a question that I don't have the answer to and that I find frustrating, I like cross my arms and, and pout and I'm just like, I don't know. I don't, I don't want to, I don't know, but I don't want to think about that right now. Like, ugh, this is annoying and it's not, that's like coming from a place where I know she's not feeling attacked.
L: You're embodying what you're actually feeling versus feeling it in your body, and presenting something else, anything else.
Lily: Yeah. I'm being difficult.
L: Yeah.
Lily: Yeah, like the other day in therapy. So I pay her a lower fee and I sometimes feel really guilty about that. But it's, you know, what we agreed upon and it’s what I need to do to go. I think I mentioned to her the other day that I, I worry that I'm not worth it because I'm so difficult that I never used to see myself as a difficult client that I, I've always kind of thought my therapist must think I'm the best and like that I'm so charming and fun to work with. Like that looks my fantasy of myself.
L: Yeah.
Lily: My hope. And now that I'm a bit more petulant in therapy, Oh, there's this part of me that's a little bit afraid that I'm, I am, I am a resistant client and I'm really, you know, difficult to treat and she just laughed at me.
*Laughter*
Lily: She was like, I love working with you. It's fun for her and it's real.
L: Like, it’s the real you.
Lily: It's me and I'm being real. And I have some self awareness when I'm being petulant. You know, like I'm sometimes even laughing at the same time. But that's been one of the biggest things is really making so much more space for these very vulnerable, very young parts that are undeniably interconnected with the, with the emotional and physical suffering.
L: Yeah. And I love that the relationship that you two have built is a place for you to be actual you.
Lily: Yeah.
L: So that actual you gets to ask the question, is it okay?
Lily: Yeah.
L: To spend this time and energy on me. And actual, you gets that real loving response, which is yeah, you are a joy and it's, and it sounds like the joy and the love that comes from working with you isn't about you presenting this one side of yourself, which does exist. Right. But like not like a, the polished version. Right. Cause that's kind of the whole point of therapy. Right? We know that.
Lily: It only took me...yeah. I've been in therapy now for almost 20 years.
L: Yeah. That's so crazy. Sometimes it takes time.
Lily: Yeah. And you know, in multiple therapists and going to school to become a therapist, I'm like, okay, this has been my process. My life has been about this. And it's, it's also really cool. Like today, today is mother's day. God, I'm so emotional. I knew this would happen. Talking to you.
L: All of you as welcome. All I have to say is I feel similarly about when I wade gently into these conversations, how heart opening they can be and I'm just like, alright, universe, have my heart.
Lily: Oh yes. So yeah, today is mother's day and I have complicated feelings about my own mom and our relationship and, but I was reflecting this morning and I made like an Instagram story of it. Well, I use Snapchat first to make sure the photo of myself as a clown.
L: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lily: Like you do on mother's day.
L: Yeah.
Lily: Like you do on mother's day and I, but I wrote on it that I was wishing myself a happy mother's day for, you know, the decades of work that are going into reparenting myself.
L: Yes.
Lily: That are going into keeping myself alive.
L: Yeah.
Lily: As imperfect as that is. Yeah. And trying to learn how to keep plants alive.
L: Mother of plants.
Lily: Mother of plants.
*Laughte*
Lily: It’s really hard work.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And as I say that, it’s like oh, this is really hard for my mom.
L: There's this new level of understanding.
Lily: Yeah. Like ah, I'm mad about a lot of things that didn’t go right.
L: Yeah.
Lily: Damn. She was trying to take care of herself and six children.
L: Wow.
Lily: You know, whatever decisions went into having that kind of family. That's another question. But like still, that's, that's what it was with limited resources coming from her own trauma. And here we are.
L: Mm.
Lily: And so I'm grateful to myself for all the work I'm putting in to try to, heal some of them where that went wrong. And through extending that gratitude towards myself, here I am in this moment coming back to actually feeling gratitude for my mom.
L: Mm. But this is again, this theme is, it's such an organic process that got you there from being in the messiness.
Lily: Yes. And it started with allowing myself to say, I hate mother's day, I'm not going to like post a cute picture of my mom and I when we, when I was little and be like best mom in the world. Cause that wouldn't feel real. But by allowing myself to feel angry, allowing myself to honor myself in the process, it opened up room for more compassion.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And that to me is, is the work. It's not starting with positive thinking.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And gratitude. It's not for me, it's not starting there. It’s starting with all the bad feelings.
L: Letting yourself feel real.
Lily: Yeah. I shouldn't even say bad feelings. All the feelings that feel yucky.
L: The crunchy feelings.
Lily: The crunchy feelings.
L: Well and they're so rich at the same time. You know, those feelings that are difficult to experience, especially physically. I think it's can be really hard to bear the physical discomfort of certain emotions.
Lily: Yeah.
L: They're so rich. They're so deep.
Lily: Yeah. And I think that, you know, I think most of us kind of default to certain feelings. And it can take a lot too, guide ourselves into that like fuller spectrum.
L: Hmm.
Lily: I had an experience. So I tend to default towards the melancholy and the like, hopelessness and the darkness, I default into the dark.
L: That's the name of this episode.
Lily: I love that. Um, it's called goth Lily.
L: Goth Lily.
Lily: But yeah, I default to things that, you know, some people might, think are negative, but I had an experience the other night, so I had a, a Lyft ride that ended up being really scary. The driver like got into an altercation with another car and was being very road ragey instead of just like driving away from the situation and it was awful and bad and that shouldn't have happened. And it was really scary for me. And I got home and I was talking to my friend about it and getting support and, and I was like, yeah, I just need to cry and that'll help. And that's true. Like crying help but that's my default is to go into like, I'm going to curl into a ball and feel sad and vulnerable and all of that. And that's like fine.
L: Yeah, you're a pro at that.
Lily: I'm a pro at that. But I can sometimes just stop there.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And what I remembered was that, Oh, after you've had a traumatic experience, like a car accident or you know, okay, some random person punched me on the street a few weeks ago. Like, and after those kinds of things happen, there can be this sort of numb, confused place.
L: Yeah, you’re kind of in shock.
Lily: Yeah. And so I remembered that. And even though it was midnight at this point, I was like, I have to move. I can't just curl into a ball and cry. I already cried. That's fine. I have to move my body and so I put on headphones. Um, and I, I also tried to figure out the best ways to like dance around my room without making the floor squeak too much for my roommate or the neighbor.
L: This is such a scene, I love it.
Lily: It was the moves that I was doing were pretty great. Um, and I just like went, I just rocked out to smashing pumpkins bullet with butterfly wings, which just brought me back to like middle school rage and like, I needed to feel anger because I felt disempowered by the situation. And I think, I think so many things in life can feel so disempowering as a woman, as like, a participant in capitalism. Sorry, I keep bringing it there. As you know, walking around feeling vulnerable in the world. As somebody dealing with health things, there's so many moments where you can feel disempowered. And so to really make space, even if it's in the this, or especially in this playful way to feel my anger was so powerful. And then I was like, well what song do I want to hear next? And I was like, Oh yeah, I'm going to do Childish Gambino's This is America. And like really got down. And then I ended it and I don't usually listen to pop music and, but I was like, oh, now I'm accessing other things. I don't have to be a music snob right now.
L: Just letting it be what it is.
Lily: Totally. And then I was like, okay, I'm going to do beyoncé's Formation.
L: Ooh. But what a little uh, arc.
Lily: Yeah, it ended in like you slay like I cause I slay and like just so much empowerment. And it worked so well. But it's so easy for me to forget to do that.
L: Yeah.
Lily: That there are other feelings and sometimes we do need to do practices that bring us into them.
L: It's so true. And that you allowed yourself to also do it in a really physical way.
Lily: Oh yeah.
L: Which is so important. Especially cause we've got like the adrenaline coursing through our bodies. And I think for me, when I don't do something with it, like my body, for me actually my body will sometimes shake when I'm processing through a time when I was scared and back into safety.
Lily: Yeah.
L: That there's that natural thing that can happen of just some shaking.
Lily: Yup.
L: And that's the, that's what animals do in the forest when they finally get to safety. Like a bird that's being chased, start shaking or whatever.
Lily: Yep. Totally.
L: And dancing is a such an exciting and fun way to let it out. Yeah.
Lily: And I, it's just, it's so interesting how we can cut off these parts of ourselves that are so actually are very natural and animalistic.
L: Yes.
Lily: Really powerful. I think that something that's been impacting me a lot recently is that I had a injury in January, I had a hamstring injury and I am a very physical person. I, I do tend to need a lot of movement. I walk miles a day. Like I, I go through periods where I'm doing more endurance sports and I need a lot of physical movement. And so having an injury really throws that off for me. And I'm just thinking about people who don't have dancing or like full body physic, physicality available to them. Even while I was dancing the other night, I was kind of like, this might actually hurt me. I might hurt my neck from headbanging, I might twist too much in certain ways that aren't great for my leg right now. And that was something I had to kind of consider, but also, sort of like screw it. Like I need this so badly right now. And I just felt really grateful that I could.
L: Yeah. And you're working within a few limitations, like the body stuff. Plus, you didn't wanna wake up your neighbor, the headphones on and certain moves were okay for sound.
Lily: Yeah.
L: Not wanting to hurt yourself but also still saying I need to do this.
Lily: Totally.
L: And I'm going to figure it out.
Lily: Well and it made me have to be really aware of my body and the movements I was doing. And it ended up being fun in a way, like a fun challenge. Like okay, maybe I'll lift my legs up like this, but I'm slowly putting it down very gently. Like a year ago I was dealing with some knee issues and I was, had a really stressful experience than I, it's like I have to run and I called it a self destructive run.
L: Mm.
Lily: But actually it was a supportive run as well, but it was just tricky because I was like, this might be worse for my knees, but yeah, I don't, I can't...walking wouldn't do it.
L: Yeah. Right. You needed to let it out in a different way. And I think we're having to make those trade offs a lot. Like I need to sleep, but I also need people and as a single person who, I have a roommate but you know, we don't see each other that much. I really need people and so I'm often sacrificing sleep for, for, for certain kinds of social activities that tend to be nighttime things that feed my soul, like karaoke and, and it's, it's tough.It's tough because the not sleeping enough impacts me. But. You know, you got to make those choices sometimes and it's, it's not an easy thing to do.
L: Yeah. That what you're referring to. Totally make sense. Like that trade off the constant weighing in your mind, okay, what do I need? What do I want? What do I need to give up? What am I gonna gain from this? And ultimately really you are the only one who can make the decision. And I love that I get to experiment too. Like sometimes I will experiment with like, well if I push myself too far in one direction, now I know where my limit is and vice versa. Like for a long time I wouldn't travel very much cause I was like, well that's going to be hard. And then I was like, well how do you really know? The fear of like, Oh my gosh, all this stuff that could happen. And the stuff that I was afraid of did happen. Like I did have days where like I couldn't leave bed because I was so exhausted. But it was like, that's okay, that's not the end of the world. And so I had to kind of figure out, oh, that's what it looks like if I do a redeye which never again, never again.
Lily: Totally. I know. I keep making that mistake.
L: It's not real sleep.
Lily: No, not at all. Yeah. I can’t sleep on an airplane.
L: Yeah.
Lily: Well, and I, it's funny because heard of going into my thirties and I'm, I'm now almost thirty five I, when I was younger I was so much more freaked out, I would push myself over the edge in all kinds of ways. More like through certain kinds of, you know, like doing triathlons and stuff. I was really freaked out by alcohol and hangovers, things like that. And I feel like I'm kind of in a new adolescence, I'm not like getting wasted often, but I now am somebody who has a few drinks a week like a lot of people do and occasionally even gets drunk. Not that often, but occasionally. When I used to be someone who had like one drink a month and maybe got drunk once a year because I was so, so adamantly opposed to like feeling bad the next day. And it's been interesting to work through a lot of that and realize that A) I don't feel as judgmental of other people.
L: Yay!
Lily: Because again, we're making tradeoffs and we have our reasons and yes, I can totally have fun sober and I do all the time, but there's a different kind of fun and like letting loose. That happens for me with having a couple of drinks sometimes and realizing that there's ways I can reduce the harm around that. Like I know gin is the ideal goose for me where other things make me feel way worse. You know, it was nice to be like, you don't have to be this like perfect image, of like purity and health. Like it didn't work anyway.
L: It didn’t work anyway.
Lily: It didn't work anyway. And it's okay to be somebody who drinks socially and I, we should constantly check in with ourselves about it and is this okay? Is this how I want to use?
L: Yeah, that's a conscious, yeah.
Lily: Yeah. Is this how I want to use alcohol. Is this how I want to use food? Is this how I want to use my relationships? This is how I want to use Netflix. There's nothing wrong with any of these things. It’s just being conscious and working with ourselves in negotiating all the various competing needs inside of us and outside of us.
L: And growing and changing and changing and changing and knowing. I think that's the thing that, uh, this thread of your, from the very beginning of our conversation you're saying, I am learning to live with this condition, but also it's like I'm learning to live.
Lily: Yeah.
L: I'm just learning to live and I'm learning again tomorrow.
Lily: Yeah.
L: And learning what I want and how maybe I change or maybe like this other new opportunity shows up that I never thought I would take advantage of. But just re-situating how you think about your body and yourself and your schedule and your friends.
Lily: Yeah, it's actually, it's gone from instead of feeling like the problem. Okay, so here's, here's an analogy in eating disorders. So you know there's anorexia which is often like hyper restriction and usually overexercise too, but majorly restrictive around food. And then in bulimia there's restriction and then there's like bingeing because you just can't take it anymore. There's kind of this flipping and then there's binge eating disorder. But no matter which one we're talking about, the restriction is the problem. Even in, you know, Overeaters it’s the feeling of restrictiveness inside. It's the feeling of I need to do everything better and better and better. And, and it is really promoted by our culture, this sort of culture around self care and around self-help. And it's self-improvement that exists right now. It can be so co-opted by the inner critic until like, I need to do more and more and more to be here. To be not good enough to make yourself into a perfect human being. It's been really interesting to see how in healing myself around food and healing myself around these other physical issues around how I want to be with drugs and alcohol. Like all of it has been about less restriction and about making more space for acceptance and experimenting and just seeing, seeing things as more neutral, like, no food is bad, it's neutral, but how does it make me feel? Is this what I want to go for right now?
L: Yeah.
Lily: And, and I think it's the same with, with anything including, you know, fixing this chronic bladder condition, fixing things, making myself better, improving myself as it's really exhausting.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And can actually do a lot of harm if you are approaching it from a really perfectionistic place and making that what life is about because someday then I will be happy.
L: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like for all the listeners right now who are resonating with what you're saying, if you could show up somehow, magically materialize in each one of their living rooms or cars or wherever they're listening and you could tell them a few things that you want them to know, give them permission, what would you tell them?
Lily: I mean, the first thing that comes to mind, don't try so hard. Whether you're trying to not try or you're trying to, you know, it's like everything in moderation, including moderation, you know, that kind of, it's like this metal level of not trying so hard. Whatever you're wanting to do with yourself. And I guess I would word that a little bit differently as a therapist. I would, I would just want to get curious about the trying and what is that feeling like and where is that coming from? What's that voice, you know, cause it's an insecurity and it's, it's fear and it's natural and it's understandable. But like how do you work with that?
L: Yeah.
Lily: You know.
L: So like bringing the curiosity to my efforting.
Lily: Yup.
L: Where's this coming from? What am I afraid is going to happen if I don't try really hard?
Lily: Yeah. What's really gonna happen if you eat carbs like, and really trying to understand what the underlying fear is because sometimes you know, we'll be like, oh, well it's just not good because of the sugar and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay. I think deeper down a lot of this controlling that we're doing is, it's very existential. It's like I'm afraid of death. I'm afraid of not being worthy as a human being. I'm afraid of being alone, you know, just like really much deeper stuff that's driving us to try to be the most perfect.
L: I can't argue with that. Lily, you just got to the heart of it.
Lily: Damn it, I was hoping for an argument, I thought this was an argument podcast.
L: Right. It's called this is not what I ordered, now let's fight.
Lily: Exactly.
L: Well, I think, um, I just love how much permission I'm hearing in the messages that I'm selfishly taking away from what you're saying, which, you know, like with every podcast it's like, take what feels good to you and what you're talking about really feels soothing to me to hear. Maybe I don't have to try so hard. Maybe I don't have to fix myself. You know, all of those things. It's so lovely.
Lily: And like this in and of itself is hard work.
L: Yeah. It's like a different muscle group.
Lily: Yeah. Like when I think about disengaging from trying to fix my, my body appearance for instance, it's not like, Oh now I don't work as hard. It's, I'm working hard in a different way that feels more realistic. It feels like it's grounded in something real, which is that I actually don't have a ton of control over my body, nor do I actually want to put my energy and resources into making my body look a certain way that's not actually worth it in my life. Despite the insecurities I might feel.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And so I think I even had a fantasy at some point that like oh, once I let go of that and embrace like full body positivity, like this is going to be easy. No, this is really hard work too.
L: There's a lot of maintenance and a lot of checking in.
Lily: Yeah.
L: Feeling the feelings.
Lily: Totally. And dipping into just like self-loathing and like perfectionism and having to try to gently pull myself out of that puddle of muck.
L: Yeah. It's not a straight line. Once you've made the decision.
Lily: No.
L: Not to have to try so hard. All the old kind of mental patterns show up in full force.
Lily: Yeah. And it can be really hard because you're like, okay, in the past when I was feeling this, this distress, for instance, if I looked in the mirror and didn't like what I saw, there was something I thought I could do about it. And that was comforting in the moment. And maybe for a week I would restrict something or do something about it and then that would fall apart and go, you know, go through that cycle over and over again, that futile cycle. Now I might look in the mirror and not like what I see and have the impulse to do something about it.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And then that knowledge that that's not going to work. And that's really disappointing.
L: Yeah.
Lily: You don't, you don't get the temporary relief of a solution.
L: Like, oh, here's how we'll fix it.
Lily: Yeah, yeah, yes.
L: Yeah. Then you're sitting with your emotions.
Lily: Totally. You're sitting with your emotions. You're sitting with…
L: EEverything that you were avoiding with the solution.
Lily: Totally.
L: Yeah.
Lily: Which is this is, I may not be seeing myself clearly or I'm only seeing myself through a certain lens right now, but this is who I am. It is the reality that this is my body.
L: Describe Lily from that wisdom. If you could describe yourself from that place, from the place that knows you're complete and that you are not to be fixed. There's no need for that. Like how would you describe Lily?
Lily: Oh my God. Without crying?
*Laughter*
Lily: What are, what are the the tear parameters on this one? Yeah, that's a, that's a really hard question and it's a good challenge I think in this moment because I'm talking about it so much and I'm sitting here with you and you're such a receptive, warm, loving person. I can feel like, describing myself, I guess would be: I am complex and deep. And I feel a lot and it makes me good at connecting with other people and helping be present with them and their feelings. And it draws people out, sometimes I can be funny and like entertaining and creative. And I dunno, like my body's not, my body does stuff.
L: I love that, it's so nonjudgmental.
Lily: I'm like, huh? I'm like, what can I say? I'm like not, I'm not in a place to be like, and I'm beautiful. I think, I think I'm in a place to say like, I'm a beautiful person.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And that in, in, in the broader sense of that meaning and I, I can feel okay about saying that.
L: And that's true for you. Yeah.
Lily: Yeah. I'm not going to be like, and I'm super hot, sexy.
L: Hey, you say what you want.
*Laughter*
Lily: Yeah, that's me.
L: I just like that there's such a calmness to how you, it really did tap into that part of you that knows, you know, like that part of you that knows your whole.
Lily: Yeah.
L: To do that description.
Lily: I dunno. I dunno how, Oh, and one other thing I just want to add is that since I'm doing physical therapy for my hamstring now finally, I am doing exercises that are building up like my glutes muscles, and I just want to touch my butt all the time.
L: You're proud of yourself.
Lily: It's just like, it's, it's like, it probably looks the same and that's not, to me doing, I love it when these things aren't about really how it looks, but how it feels. I love when I'm like, oh yeah, this is, this is Lily with a strong butt you know.
L: Like, this is what this feels like. Yeah.
Lily: Yeah. It's, it's a fun feeling and feeling that little bit of soreness in those muscles and being like, yeah, they're working and they're there to support me.
L: Yeah. Oh, that's so cool.
Lily: I wonder if that can kind of be translated to something psychological, like the emotional soreness, the emotional rawness is reminding me that all of that, those structures, those internal webs are there to support me too.
L: Mm. I love that.
Lily: Just made that up.
L: I love it. I think we're just making all of this up.
Lily: We did just make it all up. This is all completely contrived.
L: No, I mean it in the best way.
Lily: Totally.
L: I think most of life is just us making up stuff.
Lily: Yeah. I mean everything was made up at some point.
L: Right. All right. You're ready for the final questions?
Lily: I am. I've heard these before.
L: I know you've heard them a few times. This is the part where the piano goes dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
*Laughter*
Lily: Yup. I know I've been scoring this in my head the whole time.
L: Oh yeah. Somehow got the rights to childish Gambino.
Lily: That would be amazing. Maybe I'll have to compose like something similar for that part.
L: That'd be awesome. Um, so what does it mean to you to live a fulfilling life and how has that definition changed through your health journey?
Lily: Yeah. For me, living a fulfilling life is being able to access and experience a wide range of emotions and reactions and be with myself around them. And, and allow, and it means being able to really deeply connect with myself and with other people around the things that are hard and celebrate those things that, that we've overcome that we've, you know, succeeded in just that moment or that day, it's about embracing ambiguity. Maybe not loving ambiguity, but embracing it. Living with it.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And letting the big questions about life. Why? Why are we even here? Why the hell am I here? Why do I exist? What does any of it for? What's the suffering for -- letting those questions be there and not needing to answer them.
L: Mm. I love that. Has that, has the evolution of your fulfillment definition changed because of your body, the health stuff?
Lily: You know, I never really thought of it specifically that way. I think overall my evolution has been to like move away from, from happiness being a goal and like a certain kind of, and now I'm content and everything will be fine. I've really moved away from that and I can't see how these experiences I've had wouldn't have been part of that growth for me that like what I've learned is that a lot of problems can't be solved or at least not in the timeframe that I would hope. And that impacts how I view what life is about.
L: Do you have any funny stories about your bladder?
Lily: Oh, let me think. Um, I'm like, Oh, that's fun. No, that sucked.
L: I know sometimes it's both, right?
Lily: Totally, totally. Oh, I've got a good ne. So, so the kind of like bladder incontinence that I deal with is again, like I feel like I never fit perfectly into categories and maybe no one really does. Yeah, that's a good point but I often have a story that I'm different. All my problems are just too unique.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And that's somehow special but actually really sucks anyways. So I the way it seems to work for me is that like throughout the day and night, there's just like an occasional little leaky faucet. You know, I've gone to the doctor and they've been like sneeze or cough for like laugh and they look and they're like, you're not having any leakage. And I'm like, yeah, it's not, I don't think it's that kind of thing. That's not exactly it. Those sometimes certain situations will induce a worse kind of bladder leak.
L: Yeah.
Lily: Jumping on trampolines is one of them.
L: Really? Interesting.
Lily: So when I've gone, there's a trampoline place here in San Francisco. I've gone to.
L: House of Air.
Lily: House of Air. I actually had my birthday party there like my twenty-eighth birthday or something with my friends and I just have to wear like a really thick pad.
L: Uh huh. But there was another time I was jumping on the trampoline across the street from my brothers with a different brother, my younger brother and I was jumping super high. I was doing like splits in the air. Like I'm a very active, like athletic, like aggressively athletic person.
L: Yeah.
Lily: And I have a lot of physical limitations and it's this weird tension in me anyway. I'm doing that. I fully peed my pants.
L: Oh man.
Lily: And like to the point where like whatever pantyliner I had on was not enough and I was like, Oh shit. So I got off the trampoline, I'm like, to my brother, I'm like, I just peed my pants. I gotta I gotta go change. So I go across the street and I changed and put on like a new pantyliner and I just went back out and started jumping again.
L: I love it.
Lily: And like peeing my pants as an adult, it's not going to stop me from anything.
L: Right back to our regularly scheduled jumping.
Lily: Exactly.
L: I like that. That's a very resilient being your pants story.
Lily: Thank you. Yeah. I really pride myself in my, my peeing my pants resilience.
L: I think that you should honestly, I do. I think it's something to overcome and you have.
Lily: And more people have this issue than, than we know and that's something I'm learning. I had a friend recently be like, I'm really embarrassed by this, but like isn't it normal? Like do you put your pants a little in this situation? And I'm like, yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Like I thought I've told you about my bladder thing and it was so relieving to me to realize like, oh, I'm not alone. Like the thing that I think is so uniquely messed up about me, it's not uncommon in women and like might take slightly different forms, but it is, it's a real thing that, that overall there isn't a lot of great solutions for.
L: Yeah, it is very…
Lily: People feel gross about it. They feel really embarrassed by it. You know, I'm pretty good at hiding that. I wear panty liners when I'm like dating somebody new, like sneak into the, I'm like, oh I have to go to the bathroom first.
L: BRB.
Lily: Yeah, take it, take it out and then hide it at the bottom of the garbage can and like, go back and I'm like, it's sexy time.
L: And the person's like that wasn't an abnormal behavior at all. Plenty of people use the facility.
Lily: Yeah. I mean it's good to pee before so yeah. So it's like I have this cover, I dated someone for six months and I think, cause I knew it was going to end, I never told him. I was just like, yeah, why have that conversation?
L: You don't get access to the VIP room.
Lily: To the VIP. The VI-PEE room.
*Laughter*
L: Oh my gosh. That was such a pun. Such a pun. And he never knew.
Lily: He never found out. Nope. We'll see if he listens to your podcast.
L: It's privileged information, so, well, actually, yeah. Now that it's on the podcast it’s out there.
Lily: Most people in my life know about this stuff. There are some people in my life who may or may not listen. I'm like, oh.
L: This will be new information for them.
Lily: Yeah, totally.
L: Yes. I pee my pants sometimes.
L: Maybe that'll be the name of the episode.
Lily: Hello world. Yes, I pee my pants.
L: That's not going to be, I was thinking angry dance party. Maybe.
Lily: I kinda like, yes, I pee my pants sometimes, but yeah.
L: Yes. I pee my pants sometimes it is. People are gonna be like, I never want to be on that woman's podcast, look what she named the episode of this poor woman who was just being vulnerable.
Lily: I'm giving permission.
L: I'll put a little like sunburst in the corner that says named by guest.
*Laughter*
L: I swear the guest selected the name of this episode. I'm just kidding. I don't use sun bursts in my graphic design.
Lily: No, you don’t. How about like star swipes?
L: Yeah, that sounds about right. Start Swipes Selfridge. So, um, what do you have now that you might not have had without your health challenges?
Lily: Pain in the ass. Well, actually no, I have the good kind of pain, yeah. I, I'm not, I'm not great at being all silver lining about it. Um, I don't like it. I wish it would go away. Yeah. Hm. But yeah, I mean, I think I've, I have a huge bandwidth for sitting in the unknown. As much as I hate it, as much as I'm like, God, I'm so bad at that.
L: Yeah.
Lily: I actually don't think I'm so bad at it. I think I'm facing it all the time at talk about it all the time.
Like I, him deepen the existential crises always. If I didn't have such a huge bandwidth for it, I would just not do it. A lot of people don't want to talk about that stuff.
L: Yeah.
Lily: Like, yeah. So we're all going to die someday. You get that kind of, uh...
L: I’m gonna go make macaroni and cheese.
Lily: But why can't we make macaroni and cheese and talk about our impending death?
L: I'd go to that dinner party.
Lily: Oh, let's have a death dinner party.
L: Alright.
Lily: Dinner with death.
L: I think they actually have something called exactly that.
Lily: Oh, Oh yeah. Well they should.
L: Maybe there's a movie. Well who cares who they are.
Lily: Yeah, we're, we're creative. ™. We're going to brand that.
L: Yeah. There's some, I think there's something called dinners about death and it's for young people who have lost parents.
Lily: Oh wow, that's really cool.
L: And they get to connect and so, but that might not be the name of it. I don't know. And then there's, you're going to die dot com. From the episode insert episode number here.
Lily: This is my jam. That's my jam. And that's the thing. I, I take a lot of pleasure and in facing darkness with, with humor and with also with reverence, like, yeah, it's kind of a comfortable default place for me. And, and I think that I bring a lot to the world because I'm able to do that and I know that it has its limits and there's times where I need your help, Lauren. You don't, you don't ever try to make me cheer up, but you can meet me there and then you slightly pull me into the light. Then it's like, it's like, I'm like, yeah, but the dark but the dark and you're like put the light, the light.
L: I know you and I are quite, we're like superheroes. The combined forces.
Lily: Yeah. Right. It's not about dark versus light it’s dark and light together.
L: Yeah. It's good because, and that's part of my stretching too, is like through my, the health journey, I've become more and more tolerant of the difficult emotions. And that feels like a superpower too, for me because I'm like, jeez, that was hard to get to.
Lily: Totally.
L: And how my survival methods have defaulted to like find the beauty in the thing and keep going, which is great too. So it's like now I'mexpanding my, uh, my pallet of colors.
Lily: Yeah.
L: But it is fun to sit with you and talk cause they feel like we do have really balanced fun conversations then and we meet with the humor piece too, which is kind of fun.
Lily: Yeah. You never seem like turned off by the dark things I say.
L: Oh, I'm so glad. That's good.
Lily: And I really appreciate that. That's why you're one of my good friends.
L: Ah, thank you. I yeah, I love talking to you too. And eating Mediterranean food by golden gate park.
Lily: That's true. Yeah. That's the thing we've done.
L: Ah, I think that's, is that? Oh right. There's the last part. You ready? I really want the Mediterranean food part to be the last part but this is the last part. Um, finish the sentence. This is not what I ordered…
Lily: Because I didn't order anything.
L: You're like, I was just trying to be a person.
Lily: Like I didn't choose any of this. I didn't choose to be alive. That I'm aware of.
L: Yeah.
Lily: Yeah. So it's, it's not, it wasn't really my choice or in my control to begin with.
L: Yeah. You didn't order anything. I like that.
Lily: Yeah.
L: Thanks for being here with me.
Lily: Thank you for being here with me and all my tears.