Episode 52: You Don't Have To Apologize

Guest: Natalie Enright

Lauren: Well, thank you for having me in your home.

Natalie: No problem. Thanks for being here.

Lauren: And thanks for being up, for being in public about having chronic ailments.

Natalie: Yeah, no problem.

Lauren: Can you tell me a little bit about your health journey?

Natalie: Sure. So it's been about nine years, I guess since I was first diagnosed with MS. And before that, I mean I didn't have any health problems, you know, maybe I'd get like the cold, the flu, but like

Lauren: Nothing.

Natalie: Nothing. And then all of a sudden it was like literally I just like woke up one day and then it was like this domino effect of like all these weird little symptoms that were happening to me all at once. And I was pretty young, so I was hesitant to go to the doctor. It just was like, whatever you don't like. I mean, just having a weird Monday or something.

Lauren: Yeah.

Natalie: But it was actually my husband who pushed me to go to the doctor. He had a cycle's friend that was a doctor and he was kind of explaining like, and at the time I was, we were just dating.

Natalie:: It's like, can we girlfriend, she keeps having, you know, like she'll like lose her balance and like she keeps like losing her vision and then it comes back and, and his friend very gently, it's like, you know, maybe you should have her maybe just go and have the eyes checked and go speak with a doctor. And I wish I could remember how my husband kind of encouraged me to go to the doctor, but he did it in a way that I didn't feel scared. You know? Cause I feel like if I was in his position, I don't know how I would tell someone like, Hey, I think you have like a chronic illness. Like, you know, it's like kind of, it's a lot of news to take on.

Lauren: Absolutely.

Natalie: But yeah, so it just started out with me like going to the optometrist and getting my eyes checked and like, do we need glasses? And then like one doctor after another. I've never been to so many doctors. Like now it's just like a part of my life. But at the time I was like, this is so weird. Why? And then I, I do remember the day that like they were about to tell me and the the like three I think they were like, well, it's either Scarlet fever, which I was like thinking of like the Oregon trail.

Natalie: I was like, okay. I thought we maybe had eradicated that, but okay.

Lauren: The early nineties heavily pixelated Oregon trail.

Natalie: Oh, that's all I could see. Like me, I'm to go wagoners

Natalie: And then, and then they said something else which was just as weird and then they said multiple sclerosis, which I was like, I don't even know what that is, but of the three, Oh, that sounds like the Leann thought. It was just like scoliosis, which often people will are like, Oh, do you have scoliosis? When I told him what was question, then they kind of nailed it. They were like, all right, you have multiple sclerosis. I took the MRI and so since then it's just been about really managing my stress. I remember the neurologist I got, she was really great to get, gave me a very early diagnosis, which other neurologists that I've had since then. We were like, we may have not even called it multiple sclerosis when she saw it, but she got me kind of like on, you know, a program and put me on medication pretty early and not, you know, she started me off with like kind of mild, mild medications in the beginning.

Natalie: But I remember the first thing she told me, she said, whatever you were doing or plan to do before I gave you this news, still go for it. Still still do it. Yes, there's going to be complications. Yes. Things. We don't know what's going to happen after today. But you didn't know what was going to happen after today regardless if I told you you had MS or not, so don't let this diagnosis stop whatever, whatever you hadn't played. And she's like, this is just like a bump in the road. And so I always like remember like that. That always echoes in my head like, okay, I can't eat. Especially on the difficult days. I'm like, okay, this is just today. This is just right now. But so I think, yeah, that's kind of like my MS story.

Lauren: Oh, you love your husband and that amazing doctor and your husband's friend. I'll get to play a part in that little story. I mean I know there are probably a lot of people you could involve in the story, but those three sound like important ones and I just love hearing that message. Yeah. So I have multiple sclerosis too and I feel like different doctors approach it different ways.

Natalie: Absolutely.

Lauren: So you got a doctor who really was tending to your spiritual, emotional, personal life and saying you had plans. I want to acknowledge that you're human. You had plans for your life, keep going.

Natalie: Yeah, that was really helpful cause I think the mental Olympics that are the gymnastics that you do when you get a diagnosis like that, you know, and I'm like, I don't know what this is. I don't know what this looks like. I didn't know anybody that had multiple sclerosis. I think now people are talking about it more and you find out, I don't think that it's that more people are getting MS. I think that it's just becoming more part of the conversation just like cancer and other illnesses have been. So I didn't, I, you know, I, I didn't know what to expect and there was a lot of anxiety about that uncertainty so that she started the conversation that my journey started with someone just saying like when we make sure mental and spiritual needs are taken care of before we start diving into, you know, everything else that's going to follow. I really am grateful that, you know, I, it was just luck that I got her and you know, that she said that to me.

Lauren: So cool. Yeah.

Lauren: You're the other part that I thought was so neat. I mean there's a lot about your story. That's neat even though in that little burst of information, but that you mentioned how your husband approached you about it because I think and I can really relate to the idea of, well I'm not going to go to the doctor because it's just this thing like I don't like the doctor can give me bad news and I don't want bad news and

Natalie: No one loves going to the doc.

Lauren: Nobody loves it, but that there is this stuff going on for you and your husband was clearly concerned enough to talk to his friend and want to get more information and concerned enough to then bring it to you. But there's something about how he did it that helped you in her personally feel like it would be okay to go to the doctor.

Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. I mean I was in my early twenties too, you know, so I just like being sick and being responsible. I just try to being responsible with it, like at the forefront of like my, my thinking. So going to the doctor and checking something out. I just thought like, I'll just wait till this passes. But that he, yeah. That he just knew kind of like loony, let's just check this out. And I don't know, I mean, I think it's just his personality. He's very calm and he's very logical. I think he also knew me very well and knew like if I just like dump this on her, she was going to panic. I mean, who wouldn't? But I'm always grateful for that. And, and as you know, now that we're married and MS is still a part of our lives, he continues to have that same like patience and calmness.

Natalie: Which helps when I'm having a difficult day or like a new symptom pops up and I'm like, I don't know if this is my allergies or this symptom where I'm having a headache, or maybe it's something else. Which I think is another part of living with MS is any little thing when you're being, trying to be so mindful of your body, every little thing is like, is this just,

Lauren: What is this?

Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. It's my finger. Just like hurting or like this, this is an MS thing. Like is that right? Right. That little like vibration in my shoulder is it just, you know, cause our bodies do weird things. I mean at least mine does. [inaudible] Not all the time, but it happens. And for me I'm always kind of like, yeah. And he's very good about like, okay, maybe it is, maybe it's not, let's just kind of like, let's watch it and think about it. We would tell your doctor, I'm gonna send your doctor and see what they think about. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. Like let's, yeah.

Lauren: It’s a very grounding presence.

Natalie: Yeah.

Lauren: And I think being in the body that's experiencing it is hard.

Natalie: Yeah.

Lauren: So to have someone in another body that's not experiencing it and who loves you and cares about you is part of the little ecosystem. Cause I want to give you credit for being overwhelmed in those moments because it's totally normal. And also I, we don't have the same body, but I have the same disease. So we both have this relapsing form of MS remitting form, relapsing, remitting MS. So there is, I think also something about not knowing if a sin, like do you ever have a question of is a symptom going to stick around forever?

Natalie: Totally. Yeah. Yeah. And they can see this, how long is this going to be for? Like, and sometimes it that same day it'll like go away or you know, or it doesn't, when birds for awhile it's, it's hard. And I think the other thing that I appreciate about him too, cause there's a lot of people that try to be helpful and supportive, but he never tries to tell me, tell me what I'm experiencing, you know, cause that, you know, sometimes people will have the best intentions and I mean, I can't even think of an example, but you know, but they don't really understand and I, and she doesn't fully understand either. It's not happening to him inside his body. But I think he's cognizant of that enough to just like, okay, let me be a listening ear and support her but not like tell her like, you know, well I think maybe you're just panicking a little bit and you're just having a headache or, you know, cause that's really frustrating. Or when people tell me like, well, I get tired too. Everyone gets tired. I know I can't, that I told him you're stealing, you know?

Lauren: Yeah. Well I think that just be trying to figure it out on your own is hard enough. So having skeptics outside kind of questioning can be even more painful, emotionally really painful. I second guess myself all the time for the same kind of stuff you're talking about. Like is this a different thing or is this MS? There was a while where I'd be I'd say like, Oh my gosh, my, my rights just gets hot sometimes. What is that? It's like, it's always happening at like certain times. And then I realized I had an old phone and it was getting warmer and the thumb was being used. And it was that. And then like I laughed about it, but then I was also like, but what if I tell people that and then later they think that if I have a different thing, like when my feet get hot at night, which they still do weirdly, that they're going to say that maybe that's not MS or like it, I don't want it to be MS, but at the same time I don't want to be discounted about what's happening, you know? Yeah.

Lauren: It's so confusing.

Natalie: It is.

Lauren: And I think, you know, it's hard to understand that process of second guessing. I think it might even be hard for the doctors to really understand the gravity, the emotional part of wondering every day. We don't know. Like some people with MS will wake up and like in your case have vision loss or partial vision loss. That's a pretty key thing that we like. It's kind of like we just don't know when or if it's going to happen ever. And it may never happen. Any individual symptom we're thinking of, right, right.

Natalie: To me anxiety He is that can be really overwhelming. You know, I mean, yeah, besides just the physical things that you're experiencing that like anxiety of worrying about something happening or while it's happening or, I think that's something that I've found that I have to really be mindful of getting to my, my day is, especially the difficult ones is kind of managing the like anxiety part of, of the diagnosis, you know, not just like taking the medicine and like, you know, being aware of my body and stuff, but my mind, you know, that's like a big part of it. And again, that makes me think of the doctor in what she told me too. And I also think like my mother had cancer and she would always tell me like, you know, mentally you have to be strong if, if mentally you like you don't take care of your, your your mental game and think that's an [inaudible] when you were putting things together.

Natalie: But if you don't take care of yourself mentally, it's harder to take care of the physical things that come up with you. It doesn't mean that you are always perfect every time, but at least I tried to like acknowledge the anxiety when it happens and then see like, okay, how can I manage this? Where do I need to deal? Do I need to like take a break too? I need to like, excuse myself from the room. Do I need to have some like personal time and and also not being like I'm so apologetic. I think because of things it of like and worrying about if people were going to believe me. Like when you're talking about your thumb and like, should I say this and then they're going to not just count it the next time. It's really, it's in them.

Lauren: Yeah, a lot of social management.

Natalie: Oh, totally. Totally. I think that would also sometimes lead me to then be apologetic when I really would have an MS symptom or flare up in public. Especially with speech. I have a difficult time sometimes during a flareup with talking and I would find that I would get a little bit embarrassed and then I'd have to, I felt like I needed to explain to them like, Oh, that little hiccup in my speeches from AMS, sorry about that. And then eventually was like, why am I like apologizing for this? Sure. I can tell them if I want to, but I shouldn't be so apologetic about it that that's something that interestingly took a long time for me.

Lauren: I bet.

Lauren: Do you know it's very, it's very wild noticing that the MS isn't me. So when the symptoms happen that they're not me either, then I take it personally. So then I act like it's personal if I'm not really aware.

Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like I have to make other people feel comfortable with my MS. So you know, I'd also get kind of like muscle spasms or I'll shake sometimes and I would, and sometimes people may not even have noticed, but I'm so aware of it. And then, Oh, if you see my hand shaking, it's my amass. Sorry about that. I think actually working at the, the library has also taught me to be less apologetic about that because I never, I never expect patrons to come in and apologize to me for whatever they're experiencing that day that they come to me and have a question, you know? So why then would I go out in public and be like, I'm sorry I have a mass, but this might happen while we're sitting here. And that that's taken a while to yeah, that, that's just taken a while for me to deal with. I guess.

Lauren: Pardon me, wonders if, and this is kind of a thinking out loud question, I'm going to ask it to both of us, which is, cause I apologize sometimes. So it's like when I am apologizing, what's the real, more authentic message to my spirit that I want to be saying to someone? Like for me, it might be, I'm uncomfortable right now that you can see what's happening.

Natalie: Totally.

Lauren: And I want to acknowledge it's happening and do you still accept me?

Natalie: Yeah, no, I think that's exactly what it is. You know? So I've found that I can still talk about it and acknowledge that it's happening, but leave out the like, I'm sorry. Yeah.

Lauren: It's, it's a way of and I think culturally in the U S and maybe other elsewhere, but I hear, sorry. And I think often when we say sorry, what we're actually trying to do is connect. And that's what I need when I have a symptom is a connection. It's almost like, can you love me through this? Can you be with me in this? Yeah. And that's a very different thing.

Natalie: Yeah. That's a good, perfectly thinking about it. But that's exactly what it, what it is, you know? And yeah, that, that's something I've had to work through and something that even sometimes I still slip up and find myself being apologetic, you know? I'm like, wait a sec, wait a second. I apologize. Yeah. And part of it's also just kind of talking to myself too and being like, Hey, it's okay. That little hiccup. It's all right. Just if you want to keep talking, keep going. If you feel like you need to stop and tell that person what you're experiencing, fine. But you don't have to feel sorry about it. It is what it is and it happened, you know, so yeah,

Lauren: Totally. The thing I was thinking too about why, sorry Ken create connection is because often when we apologize, somebody else will help quote unquote make us feel better about it. Like, no, no, it's okay. It's okay. And that's sometimes what I'm looking for is that reassurance. Like it's okay and really I already knew it was okay in my soul, but I want to know that you think it's okay to, and that we can be honest about the okayness of it.

Natalie: Yeah. That's definitely a part of it as well. Yeah. It's good talking about this community. Yeah.

Lauren: Yeah. Because it's yeah just kind of unpacking it a little bit and saying like, wait, what is really going on in those moments? Cause I can also become a little bit self critical when I, when I'm like, why am I doing that? Which is another layer of things to deal with stress wise. Like, ah, I'm annoyed with myself. What am I, what do I want right now? What do I need? But yeah, to have, it's a, it's almost like a little bit of compassion for the part of us that says, sorry. Makes sense. That part just wants love probably. Yeah,

Natalie: That's true. And it's something that I think a lot of people experience MS or not when you're in social situations and you're like, Oh sorry, there's like, you know, people who feel awkward or have their own little hiccups all the time. So I try to also remind myself like you're not the only person in the room that has these kinds of moments or experiences, you know? So being kind to myself, I think that's something I have to remind myself. It's like be kind to myself, be patient with myself.

Lauren: And you, you have kind of taken your MS journey and your chronic illness journey and you've told me that part of what gets you through it is your attitude and your way of being in that positivity has been a part of that. And I associate being kind to yourself with positivity and I'm wondering what that path has looked like for you.

Natalie: When I was a little kid, I used to, I don't know if I had add. I think I probably was just like every other little kid, just really hyper. But a grandmother would have me meditate. She like taught me how to meditate. It's a lot different than how I meditate as an adult. But that was something that we practiced together and you know, then I became like a teenager and a young adult and like, it wasn't like I was meditating any longer, but after my diagnosis it was something that I kind of came back to. And that really is a key part of how I keep that positivity and like help with that, that Brene overactivity of second guessing myself and doubting herself and think meditation's helped me to understand that, that those things are still going to happen. It's not about stopping like eliminating them.

Natalie: I mean, that'd be great. But like it's not about stopping them completely, but it's about when they come up, like acknowledging that and finding a way to like push through it and sometimes just acknowledging it helps it kind of go away. So meditation's been a, a big, big, big part of, at least with, with the mental part of my struggle with mass. And then and then another part of it is being active, which like the doctors would always talk about and which wasn't something foreign to me before getting sick. I, you know, I grew up in San Diego, so I grew up like surfing and like I'd go snowboarding and I was like an athlete in high school. So these were things that were strange, you know, being active. But a big part of MS is fatigue and sometimes pain and sometimes like numbness and doing those activities just, I wasn't able to do them in the same way and I didn't enjoy them in the same way I used to go jogging with my family before school.

Natalie: That's not the first thing I see God doing now. You know, I don't even know. Yeah, it's great to go jockey, but probably not going to do that. So finding other ways to stay active. That was a journey in itself to going from, you know, being super active outdoors-y person to now like what can I do that won't stress my body out too much because for me, realistically going into like a gym and doing like a PX 90 or whatever, people that I would be like in bed for five days after, I can't, I can't do that realistically. But I really like to walk. I live in San Francisco, this is a great city to walk around. So sometimes just going on a 30 minute walk or it could turn into, you know, a couple hours walk is great if I'm feeling really, really good going on a hike, that fresh air, those types of spaces.

Natalie: And those activities also helped me to kind of clear my brain and stayed positive. They give me confidence, you know, being able to go hike and even if I'm the slowest person on the trail and I have to stop, you know, every so often. But it feels really good to be like, Oh wow I did this. Or even if it's a 30 minute walk in the city, it's like wow, I did this, I went to the grocery store, I got the things on my list and I remembered everything over this and okay I've accomplished some things and today those things help with the positivity. I think. I just don't want to feel disabled to the point of that I can't live, you know. And I always describe to people as like a hidden disability. People don't look at me and think Oh yeah she has like a or she was struggling with something.

Natalie: I look like able body then like healthy, you know to maybe some people and and but I still struggle even though I may look like healthy to people, I still struggle and it's still important for me mentally to feel like I can do something. Cause there are days that I'm like stuck in bed and really relying on, you know, my husband to like help me out. So when I have a good day and like, all right, let's go on like a 15 minute walk around or like let's just like if we can get to the store, even if we don't get anything, if I forget everything or you know, sometimes I'll get them, I'm like, I forgot the list at home. Let's just get something that we can remember and get back home. And I'm like, all right, I did that, I did that and I may have lent the hallway there and might've liked needed a cane that day, but like, okay, I did that.

Natalie: That's okay. Or just getting out to the living room and like meditating and like maybe that's all I can do that day. Or I have a ballet bar and maybe I can do like five minutes of stretching, you know? And that's okay. That's fine. Try to like celebrate those, those moments, whatever they they are or like, Oh, I read, I just read today. I didn't do anything physical, but I like I got up, I sat up and I read 50 pages in this book, which is sometimes that's like, that's a victory when you're having like brain fog and my eyes are bothering me, you know? So I try to just celebrate that. Yeah. And, and that really feels, that feels good for me. That gives me a costume.

Lauren: It's like, it sounds like an ongoing checking in with your body, seeing what you're up for, knowing when to push and when not. I think that's one of the big things too, is figuring out like, I think signals that our body receives are different than maybe somebody who doesn't have a chronic illness. Like sometimes I feel fatigue and I know that it's the kind of fatigue that means I need to rest. And sometimes I'm like, Oh, if I start to move a little bit, that might help. So there's a lot of finally attune. There's a lot of attunement that you have with your body in order to do that. And I'm remembering there was another time you wouldn't know who we're talking about, your hiking and how you used to hike and now it's a little different and there's a social aspect to it cause you'd go with people. Yeah. And can you talk a little bit about what that process has been like figuring out how to do hikes now.

Natalie: So before, you know, I was just like,

Natalie: Hey, can you just go and whatever.

Natalie: I didn't really think about it. I didn't even like stretch. It was like, it was also a lot younger. Now definitely if people, I mean my husband knows the deal, but if people come with us, you know, I kind of just tell them like, Hey, I'm feeling really good today, but I don't know what it's going to be like when we get out there on the trail. I'm probably gonna have to stop. And you're welcome to like go ahead. Like this is where we're going and, and just kind of, you know, communicating with people in a way where I feel comfortable letting them know kind of what my ability is that day. Sometimes I feel really great that morning we've gone on hikes with people where I'm all ready to go and then we get there and I'm having breathing problems or having numbness in my foot and maybe I just have to be like I am today.

Natalie: I can't, you know, you guys are welcome to go ahead. Don't feel bad, no pressure. But today is just not my day. And what I've found is when I communicate with people, however I'm feeling that day or however much I can do that day or if that changes in the middle of the hike, it helps me relax. It probably helps them feel comfortable too, you know, so that they're not like, Oh my God, is she okay? Like if I stop and I'm like, well, you know, I think communicating has been a big part of my journey as well. And that's not to say that everybody should be like disclose about their illness or what they're experiencing. I am just saying regardless if you have a mass or not, like it's just helps me to communicate with people and tell them like this is how I'm feeling. Or another big thing I know earlier in my disease is I would have to cancel sometimes last minute on social things and I would like try to make up excuses of why I suddenly can't come out. Like, you know, and sometimes they were like very terrible, like my toilets exploded. I mean it wasn't that bad. But like, you know, looking back like that was kind of ridiculous and

Lauren: Well, it also gives you a little privacy to have your own process without [inaudible] to disclose. It's just, it's not fun.

Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. And so now I just, you know, I don't have to tell them the like details of what I'm experiencing on a day, but sometimes it's just like, I'm really sorry. I know we had plans today, but I'm just not feeling it. I'm really, really tired and I've had a long day and I apologize. But I, you know, I have to cancel. I need stay home. I think with my close friends because of they know about the MS, they're like, okay, cool. With newer friends. I dunno how they received that, but that's also another thing. It's not really any of my business, how, what people think about me and how they receive that information when I give it to them. I've just shared that with them. If they can handle that and like, you know, but I can't sit here and like worry about, it's like I have to take care of of myself.

Lauren: But it probably takes time to get to that place.

Natalie: Oh absolutely.

Lauren: You know, like the awareness and it can be a little disappointing cause sometimes the way people take it as very personally or they don't believe aS or, and I want to be at the or have patients. Yeah. And sometimes question whether or not we're committed to actually whether we want to go. And like you said, you really do want to go, but ultimately the truth is sometimes the body just isn't up for it even if our spirits are up. Right.

Natalie: Right. And so I've have learned and that's another part of like that kindness and that, yeah. Taking care of myself is just being like, it's okay. It's okay if at the very last minute something comes up, if it's, if you really need this moment to stay home and take care of yourself, like you need to do that. And, and, and I would want someone to be honest with me too. I wouldn't want someone to like force themselves to come out with me and they're like dragging themselves, you know? So yeah, it's, it's definitely communicating and with the hiking it, it's helped me to still go out and hike cause I think initially I would stay away from things because I'm like, well I don't want to go out to, you know, meet up with friends for drinks or something or I don't want to go out to a late night movie or I don't want to go hiking or with a big group because like what if I have a flare up?

Natalie: Or like what if I can't keep up with them? Or like what if we have to stop and turn around? And Maya's men would always say like, well, let's just try and if you do, then we stopped and we turn around and we'd go home. Like that's totally okay. And with everything, he was always like that. Even with like pursuing going to school, like I went back to college after my diagnosis and there were so many times just in the application process where I'm like, why am I doing this? This is insane. College is stressful. The big thing they say with MS is like manage your stress and now I'm going to take on this like huge project of going to college and I'm like, Oh there I was like in my late twenties and this is ridiculous. Maybe that door is closed and like colleges is not for me. And he would say, well let's just try. Let's just try and if like you can't, then people drop out of school at the time and go and do other things. That's that's fine.

Lauren: I love that because it's, it really is looking back at it now you're saying, Oh well yeah I can try and see what happens cause you did. But in the moment, in those moments that you're describing, not wanting to go out because you don't know if you'll need to come back home in the middle of it. I totally can understand that. And I think that's part of, I had to kind of do that enough in my own life to realize that I was being so predictive and it regardless of whether my prediction was accurate, ultimately the giving permission to just play it by ear, see what happens, go home if I need to, was so much more freeing because now I can do things in the world where in sometimes it's disappointing cause it can't do the thing I really wanted to do. But I can go out and just see like your husband said and, and I can see too for you that you have adopted that because you did do your grad program and you did, you know, let start letting yourself for example, go for these hikes. And I think giving myself that permission has enabled my life to be a lot more improvisational, a lot more. There's a lot of attunement that I have to have with myself. I have to be good buddy to myself and not just try and push through. Right. Cause when I do that then I'm in a whole other situation and then I'm actually less likely to go out again. Cause if I pushed myself every time I'm not going to like it.

Natalie: Right. Exactly. Yeah. And then it also, when I do have moments where like a hike has to be cut short, then it's, I don't feel that like, disappointment cause it's like, well we already started this with that. We might not get to the top of this Hill or whatever so that it didn't happen. It's like it's okay. You know, we made room for that, like mentally and spiritually that that might happen. But there's also been days that we've gone all the way to the top of the Hill so we know that that's a possibility in the future. So let's just like call it and I don't know, go home and relax and like watch a movie or something that's like kind of how like I've, you know, learned to manage the, I'm asking, you know, or like my expectations for myself every day because it really is like a day by day thing, you know? And, and I can't always hold myself to the same expectations of, of yesterday or even like this morning, you know, like maybe I was like this morning feeling like I'm going to take on the world and get everything on my list done. And then like noon constantly like, but I might just get back and get one of those days, you know? But I acknowledged my list, my to do list to acknowledge that it might not happen and it didn't. So that's okay. You know that it happens.

Lauren: Yeah. I can obviously relate. I mean I think there's just so we don't have all the same symptoms, but it's really neat to be talking to you and there's a little relief I feel like, just like you get it. Okay. Yeah. Maybe not a hundred percent get it, but I like 89% get it or whatever. And it's just so not, it's just another reminder. Even though I have a podcast about chronic illness, it's such a reminder that we need each other. We need to have these moments, I think to reaffirm that there's nothing weird about us. There's nothing wrong with who we are on a soul level. We're not the only one. You're not the only one. I'm not the only one. The folks listening right now who are resonating with this welcome to the coffee table that we're sitting around, but just, I think, yeah, that's the relief is the sense that I'm not alone.

Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. And that helps. So, so, so much. And I love the support that I get from, from everyone in my life, friends and family. But it really does. It's like another level, a different type of connection. When you do speak with someone that is going through, you know, that has, it may not, it may not even be a mass, it may just be some other kind of chronic thing that they are living with. But it like helps you to empathize. It helps you to understand. I remember speaking with someone that was at the library that was dealing with mental illness and it, it, it's not ms, but we related on the, you know, kind of second guessing yourself and being, you know, insecure about like telling people, disclosing about what you're going through and wondering if people, all the things that we've been talking about too were very similar to what she was experiencing too with their mental illness.

Natalie: And that we're able to connect on that I think made her a little bit more comfortable to ask me questions and ask me for help as a librarian. And it made me feel good too, that like, that she was able to feel comfortable and so that we could like, well, let's get to the what you need and how I can help you cause that that's what I want you, you know, I want you to be able to come and ask me for quotes. That's my job, you know? So and I w you know, the, some people that are like thankful for their diagnosis. I wouldn't say that I'm thankful for having a mass cause like I would gladly like throw it out the window. But I do think that it's, it's changed the way or it's helped me to empathize and relate to people, especially in my, my job as a librarian and what I, what I do is having like just that like other little like sixth sense or whatever. When you have people come in and that they know like, Hey, I'm just here to listen and help you not to judge and you don't even have to tell me what you're experiencing. Let's just try to, whatever information we call information needs, whatever your need is, let me help connect you to that resource that you can empower yourself and get through your day. That's, that's what I'm here, you know?

Lauren: That is so cool. I want you to be my librarian. I want to call you and ask all the questions or come into the library and I think it's so cool that you wanted to study this, that your MS was a reason that you could have potentially not done it and you chose to anyway. And now your MOS turns out to be one of the points of connection between you and the people that come in and that there's a safety you create together both by being willing to disclose and to say to each other, I'm here for it.

Natalie: Yeah. Yeah. And also like just being respectful of people's privacy. You know, cause sometimes people come in and, and it doesn't have to be so dramatic. It could just be like they have a 25 cent fine, but there's this happens a lot when someone comes into pay their fine and then they feel like, well I have to explain to you why this book is late. Why? Oh there's 25 cents, you know? And of course I listen to them, but I always tell them, you don't have to tell it. You don't have to. I don't get paid more. I don't get like commission off of your story of, you know, we just want the book back. You know, we just want the book back so it could be lended to someone else that you brought it back. That's great. That's great. You need to pay the fine now and now we've got rid of fines.

Natalie: But like at the time if you want to pay that 25 cent fine, sure. If you can't do that right now, you can still be in the library. You can still enjoy our resources but you don't have to tell me why you're here. You know? And, and I think a lot of that to understanding that is my MS has helped with that too. Cause I don't always want, sometimes I can like easily talk about it, you know, if people ask. And then there's other times I feel very like guarded about it. Like I'm not ready to disclose or I don't feel comfortable with people knowing for whatever reason. And that's made me also when like people might be coming into the library with that same feeling and I need to like respect that when I'm asking them questions or when I'm engaging with them in whatever way. So it's been helpful in that in that way. Yeah. It's almost like you're making the assumption about everyone that they're doing their lives the way that they know how within their abilities and that you don't require an excuse or justification. Right.

Lauren: The kindness, love, openness, welcoming vibes. And it kind of reminds me full circle of back to the, I'm having a symptom with somebody else bearing witness to it and not really sure how to connect and what really you give to the folks at the library is the same thing that I think I need. And maybe you need when a symptom comes up where it's like just, you didn't even have to tell me about it, but I'm here. Yeah, yeah. You can just be present and it's okay to just do that shaking or you know, speech stuff. Yeah,

Natalie: I'm here. Yeah. Yeah. That the MS and my job is here and it's, it's not even, I don't know if it's like the MS has helped my job or the job is like helped my MS, you know? But there's some, there's some connection there. There's some relationship there that I've benefited from and I'm hope that the public, you know, as their librarian have benefited from, you know, I try to just be a source of information but not like a, I'm not there to judge, you know, I'm just here to like, I'm here to serve the community, you know, I'm here to support you. So

Lauren: I think that my guess would be that it's your relationship with your MS, your relationship with yourself and with them and your willingness to synthesize it, to bring it together, to show up with all the knowledge that you've been gaining along the way. Because yeah, I think, I think what you just said is I'm, I'm kind of translating it to be, I'm taking all the riches and the gems,

Lauren: All these experiences and using them for good stuff.

Natalie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's true. I said, I think that's why I love my job. It's so cool.

Lauren: You have a really neat job.

Natalie: It's really fun job. I mean it's, it's challenging because it's the public and we can't anticipate who's going to walk through that door or even if it's people that walk through that door every single day. And when we all know that we have good days and bad days, so some of your most loyal patrons that are sweet and gentle Monday through Thursday and then Friday comes on and they just didn't have their coffee or whatever and, and all of a sudden your sweet patron becomes a little bit of a nightmare. But that that it makes the job interesting but it is also challenging, you know? And but I always tell people, especially when they travel and like move to a new city and like go to the local library, especially like the city center library or big main library, if you really want to know what's happening in your community, if you really want to know who like lives in your community, what resources you go to the library because everybody goes there, right?

Lauren: Like in a city like San Francisco where we have such a huge spread of wealth, we have like people make a ton of money and then people that have very little, the library is like one of the few places where you can find all both of them and everyone in between in there, right. We have tech people come in there that use our resources and then you have people that are experiencing homelessness that come in there as well. And so you have like this whole range, everyone that lives in San Francisco who's visiting in the Bay area and it really gives you like a snapshot of like, Oh this is, this is the city I live in, this is so it's helped inform me like even politically, like even just every thing about my life has really been informed with my experience at the library. So I always tell people like, of course, get a library card, some library I have to like do it.

Natalie: You got a library card, but also just go sit in your library, talk to the librarians there and the staff there. And I think you will find a lot of resources that you probably didn't even know that they had that you might need. You know, that you don't have to pay for it. And now it's like free. But mostly you're learn a lot about the people that are around it. Cause we're always on our phones. We're in our houses, we're in, we go to the same bar in the same restaurant, the same park. And so we kind of start seeing the same people in those places that are maybe probably more like-minded like us. But you'd go to a place like the library and not everybody thinks like you do. They don't vote like you do. They don't eat like you do. They don't listen to the scene, they don't dress like you. They don't speak the same languages as you do, but you're all there in the same space. You're all there in the same program. You're all there, you know, at the computers together and you have to kind of share that space.

Lauren: Yeah, I think that have to, as part of the cool part of it, it's the same concept of yeah, anytime you're in a something that you didn't self-select, there's there's a discomfort that can show up and that's part of the, at what's so awesome about it. Like, Oh, I wouldn't have picked you to sit next to me. Here we are and now we're like having an interaction or just meeting people and being part of the community in a way that we wouldn't have otherwise. And I can just see how you talk about it being, I can see how you're such an important space holder. Like you hold space for all of it in the library. That is so cool and I can see how it's fueling and nourishing you as well. So absolutely. It doesn't surprise me that you're very thrilled about your job. What does it mean to you to live a fulfilling life and is your definition and fulfillment impacted by your health?

Natalie: I think for me to live a fulfilling life is to be able to do, to do the things that are really important to me. Yes. My health, like is part of that. And and so it doesn't necessarily mean to do it particularly or be the best at it, but just to, to be able to like try to just try, that's like a fulfilling life. It doesn't mean that I'll always be successful at everything that I pursue, but if I, if I just have like the motivation, it's not even about like the ability, but the motivation to I'm just going to go for it. Like I'm just going to try to go to college and go to grad school. I'm going to try to be a librarian and be like, I'm going to try to do this hike. And even if I don't always have the ability to do whatever it is, but just to have the motivation to try, I think that's like a fulfilling life. And, and so, yeah, my health is a big part of that because it kind of dictates, you know, the ability to do the things that I pursue.

Lauren: I feel like I had this image inside of your heart of, or like in your soul body or whatever of this little flame or spark and you saying like it's not about whether or not I can do exactly what that desire or excitement or passion is. It's just that I keep kindling it and then it turned into your personal North star. So that was my image that came up by here. Talking about that. Like just keep referencing that you can with it.

Natalie: Yeah, like just keep dreaming. Just keep, yeah, having an imagination. Just thinking like that's a fulfilling life. If I stopped dreaming, I'm like imagining what my life could be like. That would be unfulfilling. But just to always be able to like, like, Oh, I want to do this or this is how I see myself, or this is what I'd like my future to be in. I just want to try to make that happen. That's fulfilling.

Lauren: That's so cool. To have any funny moments to share from your health journey telling goodness.

Natalie: Usually I don't like, I can't think of one specifically, but I would say like sometimes it's kind of funny and awkward, but I've learned to kind of laugh about it. It's like the, my little hiccups when I'm trying to speak, you know, like sometimes it can be really funny what com like comes out of my mouth. And I think it's really funny when it's with people that know me really well, like especially my husband cause and what will make us laugh is because it'll come out totally wrong, but somehow he's like, but I understand what you're trying to say. You were trying to say this and then like how did you even ask? Cause like I'm listening to what I just said and it doesn't sound like how it sounded in my brain. So sometimes they're those little funny things or even what's the, I hope this is what you're asking. Right.

Lauren: Okay. Funny to you. It really is about what it's like for you.

Natalie: I mean, sometimes you, you learn to laugh at yourself or but sometimes it's those things or it's you know, I'll like repetitively ask like, did we want like did we, and he's like, how, yeah. I'm just making sure. I think finding some humor with it kind of helps sometimes or even when I think back to like what I said earlier about when the doctors were like, same Scarlet fever or whatever, you can like what, you know, like late, I mean at the time I was like, what? But later when I would tell friends they had the same, they're like, like the Oregon joint. I know, right?

Lauren: We can all relate.

Natalie: Yeah. I just like, that's like my only reference to scarlet fever. It's like playing that little, get them very pixelated computer as a kid in the library. And, but yeah, sometimes it's just like laughing at, at things like that or just thinking like, Oh my gosh, look at how far I've come with this disease for nine years and look at how many different ways it could go and are going through school.

Natalie: And just the days where I was like, I just give up. Like the amount of times that I've said I've quit. Like now it's, I have two degrees, I can like I have accomplished this, but if there was like a, like a fit, my life was a reality show, there would be like a lot of like breakdown footage of me like threatening to throw the computer out the window. They were like very dramatic adult tantrums that happened. It wasn't like a graceful journey, you know? And so luckily I'm not like a celebrity with the, with a reality show. But I think about that that too, like looking back like, Oh my gosh, even with all of those adult tantrums, like I still did it. Like I, especially with this new job that I just got like, almost like every other day my husband will text, Oh my God, you're, you're the adult services librarian.

Natalie: You know, if Sanchez go public, if this was your dream, like can you believe it? And I'm like, I know I can't. Do you remember how many times I quit? I said like, I quit. I'm done. I'm done. You know? Or even even with physical activities, even going on hikes, even some of those things like I, I can't, maybe I'm just never going to hike again, you know, this is it. I quit and then like 15 minutes later, like I didn't mean that I'm not really quit. I just like having really bad days, you know? So sometimes I look back at all that stuff and it's, it's humorous now. I mean, I'd been funny at the time, but you know, kind of looking at that and thinking like, okay, well the next time this happens and I have an adult pantry, remember that. Like I did get through this.

Natalie: Like I got through the toughest, I've so far survived every toughest moment of my life and I'm still here. So yeah, like that's really cool, you know? Yeah. I have like a pretty good track record, you know, in doing it like stumbling and crying and like screaming and throwing my hands in the air. Like, and I still did it and that's something I tell, I worked with kids in the library at first and I would tell them that all the time. Or even their parents, they'd be like, Oh, we've got school must have been so easy for you. I'm like, no,

Lauren: I wonder why they think that.

Natalie: I don't know. I think they just like the librarian, like, Oh, you, you know everything you've read every single book in life. No I haven't, but...

Lauren: That is not a requirement to be a librarian.

Natalie: I've been such a breeze for me. I'm like, are you kidding me? It's like the hardest thing I'd ever...

Lauren: It’s a big journey, a big thing to, to embark upon. And even with the adult tantrums, she still made it. And maybe the adult chip tantrums are part of what helps you keep going.

Natalie: But yeah, looking back, I definitely like can laugh about those moments now and just think like, Oh, I, I did it. Like I still did it. I did, did it. Yeah, I did it.

Lauren: Checking. Just making sure it's not a dream. What do you have now that you might not have had without your MS?

Natalie: I mean a couple of things. I did speak about having like empathy. It's not that I didn't have empathy before, but I think I can just relate a little bit better or like emphasize with people a little bit more. There's definitely that part of it.

Natalie: I also think that just understanding how precious life is. And like when we were talking about initially when I got diagnosed and I was really young, you know, I was in my twenties I didn't want to go to the doctor and I still don't want to go to the doctor. But just I think something that I have now with my MS is just more compassion for myself, a little bit more maturity about like, okay, like listening to those signs and stuff and not ignoring them and that that's helped me. Cause that's also like, you know, when we talk about having, what's the word I'm thinking of? Like, like when you have that feeling of like, Oh look at like, Oh, your intuition. Yeah. You know, like I think now I'm more like listen to that, listen to that. Even if it ends up that I wasn't like totally right about it, but what would it hurt to just follow that and kind of like, okay.

Natalie: And so that, that goes beyond just health. That goes about like people when I'm like walking around the city when I'm like doing things, just kind of always like listening to myself and, and I think that I've had to learn that and make that a part of my life because of the MS and I've just carried that into like other things. And another thing that helps with being in the library, cause people come in and you have to kind of like mind who's coming into the library too. And like sometimes you have to go and you know, deescalate situations in the library too. And so I have to be aware of what's going on around me all the time. And I think having, you know, living with MS has made me like more hyper sensitive, hyper aware of, of things like that. So I think those are things that maybe I would have like eventually learned, you know, who knows if I didn't have that mass.

Natalie: But I definitely can like say like, you know, I think that that is a big, big part of it. You know? And then communicating, having to communicate, having to like talk to doctors. Another doctor that I had affects you now that I'm thinking about, I've been really lucky with the doctors I had, but my primary doctor at the time when I was in San Diego and got diagnosed, he told me, he was like, you know, Natalie, you, when you come into the doctor, you're very good about listening when I'm talking to you. And the only thing I would encourage you to do now with this diagnosis is still listen, but make sure that like speak up when you, when you have a question, speak up. But also if something doesn't feel right or if they tell you something or you know, they encourage you to take a certain medicine, like be your best advocate, you know?

Natalie: And and that's something that I've had to learn cause you get these doctors telling you all this stuff that's happening to your body and then they give you these like maybe options, at least in my experience, won't give you options on medicines or tracks that you can take. Or like we want you to take this and be able to say like, wait, hold up. What is this medication going to do to me? Let me, do you have something that I can take home and read about before I make a decision about putting this in my body. Like it's not that I'm opposed to medication, but I just want to have like a full understanding of what's going on. And that's something I've learned with the MS that I've also carried in to the rest of my life. You know? So when you're, if it's a contract or something that you're dealing with someone when you're buying something, you know, instead of just like, Oh well I'm getting this car and near the car dealers so they must know.

Natalie: So I'm just gonna like blah blah, blah. Like, no, wait, if I sign this, what's going to happen? What am I responsible for? What you know? I think that's something I've also learned about the MS is to like really be my best advocate and really speak up for myself, which is all these things are things everybody should do. Right? Yeah. And that's another thing too. It's like everything I think that I do in my life to manage my MS besides the medication are things that all of us can do. You know, I even like tell my husband too, like you have to be mindful of your stress. You need to make sure that you're taking care of yourself. Especially being the late caretaker in the sense for me, I can complain all the time, right? People will give me the space to heal. She has like a mass and but as the caretaker, he doesn't really get that moment to be like, this is a lot for me to sitting in these appointments and like hearing what's happening to my wife.

Natalie: Like I'm stressed. That was something that, you know, we'd have to discuss too, like this is, you know,

Lauren: Everybody can benefit from checking in with ourselves

Natalie: And communicate to mean to when like if you need a like a moment too because you're getting, you know, overwhelmed by all this information as well too. So I think like all of it's made us like a better couple in that sense too, cause we really have to communicate with each other about like this is what's happening to me. How are you receiving this information? Like now I'm canceling plans for the both of us. Like did you want to still go or do you want to stay? You know, like it's made us and it happened when we were so young and at the very beginning of our relationship now we've been together for 12 years. But the beginning we were like in our, we weren't even in our mid twenties yet. You know, and then all of a sudden your girlfriend's like, maybe that's cheap.

Natalie: It's like a lot to process, you know? And I think he thought like, I, I don't want to say any, I don't want to make it more. So it's like, no, this is like this apartment. This is our world. We need to like talk about this, you know?

Lauren: And then that theme of tuning into yourself, tuning into your partner, tuning into the world kind of shows up as a thread throughout all those little lessons that you just shared is like you're really paying attention.

Natalie: Yeah. That's really neat. Yeah.

Lauren: Finish this sentence. I know. Finish the sentence. This is not what I ordered,

Natalie: But I'll handle it.

Lauren: Ooh, no, I like that. I can almost hear the period at the end of the sentence, but I'll handle it. And I like that. Thank you so much for joining.

Natalie: Yeah, thank you.

Lauren: This is fun.

Natalie: Yeah, this is great.